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Old 03-28-2022, 03:15 PM   #31
RGTraynor
 
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

As far as "hard caps" go, I don't have a bright-line rule. My character creation handout has the following:

In general: a skill level below 11 is unreliable;
* Skill-11-12 is fair, in the "it’s good to have someone in the party who knows something about literature" camp, and where an average craftsman is;
* Skill-13 is good, and where a talented craftsman is;
* Skill-14-15 is quality, and is the floor where you want the make or break ability upon which your character relies;
* Skill-18+ is expert ... a level which I will not let a new character exceed, and am very unlikely to allow a new character to reach without an outstanding explanation on the part of a player.
* Skill-21 is the best in all the land, while Skill-25 is the best in all the world. Getting to -21 requires a dedicated focus incompatible with the adventuring life, along the lines of spending five hours in the dojo each and every day.
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Old 03-28-2022, 03:47 PM   #32
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post

What "power" usually means is having the energy(FP or other) to _cast_ the spells you've got and everything can revolve around that.
Yes.

If we're moving the discussion to fantasy knights and fantasy spear-wielding peasants, then fantasy wizards will come up . . . and their skill with spells isn't even close to as important as their energy for powering spells. All of my worst mistakes as a GM of players of spellcasters were in that realm. The thing that keeps people from just throwing dozens of save-or-lose spells isn't resistance (which has a cap) or even time, really, but the lack of hundreds of energy points.

The usual proof is that when I've offered magical wishes that could grant 20 points of any one thing (not complex builds or combos), I've had many a spellcaster opt to waste 2 points and get +6 to their Energy Reserve [18], but nobody take +5 to their favorite spell [20], because a recharging reserve of 6 energy for all spells is so vastly more useful than -1 to cost and half time with one specific spell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post

One thing I've noticed about Gurps is that ST is optional for a warrior, while DX/Skill is required [...] I do think there is a point where buying ST and HT rather than skill become worth it. Especially if you are facing a well-rounded roster of supernatural enemies. It'd be curious to do some stats on that.
"ST is optional" is somewhat true in mortal vs. mortal conflicts where nobody can have extraordinary abilities or gear. As soon as people can have arbitrary DR all over their body thanks to tech or magic, which can quite easily protect even the eyes (e.g., invisible or transparent plastic visors), and/or innate gifts, ST matters to punch through the DR. If the enemy is weird enough – say, with one or more of Damage Reduction, Homogeneous, Supernatural Durability, and Unkillable – even DR ceases to matter, and you just need damage output. In fantasy, so many things just don't care about your high-skill eye poke that you absolutely need ST if you're planning to use weapons rather than magic.

Of course, this burdens the GM with the duty of remembering all that stuff. Or just reading that the dragon has, on top of DR 20, Nictitating Membrane 20 that makes the eye poke kind of pointless. A lot of GMs run everything like a human with human vulnerabilities, in which case skill is indeed decisive.
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Old 03-28-2022, 05:00 PM   #33
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

My experience running a multi-year SF campaign (base TL10) is that ST is very useful. Yes, at that TL it doesn't mean much in terms of damage directly from ST. However, it lets you carry stuff, and stuff is what makes the damage component of ST generally unimportant - armour, guns, sensors, etc.

Then there are the times when a conflict goes physical in a situation where people aren't in serious armour and aren't carrying guns (like in a bar, or a meeting room). Being the strongest person in the room has quite a lot of value then.

Also, ST includes hit points, and even in an SF game they are useful.

I think if you're (generic 'you') finding that ST isn't seen as worthwhile, and this bothers you (if it doesn't, well there's no problem, of course), you need to look at arranging for more wilderness trips on foot, and other such events.
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Old 03-28-2022, 05:47 PM   #34
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

One thing I think we're overlooking here is that if this rich dude has enough wealth to buy armor (and prep to armor up ahead of time) he probably also has the wealth/prep to get on horseback for superior mobility than the spear guy.

This would be very different on horseback since you could have your horse charge the spear guy and using spears in close combat gets pretty tricky.

A spear wielded 2H is reach 1,2* which means it takes a ready maneuver to change reach, so if you're stuck at reach 2 then you're -8 to skill to use it in Close Combat until you make that ready maneuver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
Fighting blind is not really a great idea
usually not, though the armor makes it a lot more feasible to do

B394's visibility rules make it only -6 if you can still see your surroundings (buckler-over-face guy still can see up/down/left/right just not front) and a mere -4 to hit if you still have an idea of where the person is (ie you know they are in the hex ahead of you because otherwise you would be able to see them coming around the left/right of your buckler)

You get -4 to defenses in this situation but if you're already doomed due to Deceptive Attack then you're probably just going to make All-Out Attacks anyway.

AOA:double where 1st is a DWA (shield bash + sword) and 2nd is another sword hit could be pretty effective - if you're purely relying on your high spear skill to parry this stuff then that 3rd parry is going to be at -8

Using that spear to parry also sets up rich guy to use his ST 12 for a Bash as well which is going to penalize parries coming in the following turn.

Your basic spear also weighs only 4 pounds (B273) so it risks breaking if you use it to parry an attack 3x that (12+) per B376, so ST12 guy making a slam would be adequate to do that.

This would also apply if using the 15lb medium shield on B287 (2 in 6 chance of breaking) and using a Shield Bash w/ a 25lb heavy shield has a 5/6 chance of breaking the spear if it parries.
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Old 03-28-2022, 05:47 PM   #35
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

Agree with all Rupert said above. ST in TL3 or TL10 or in between I've always found useful. Maybe as Striking ST or Lifting ST rather than the full stat at times, but rarely felt like it was wasted if you wanted a combat character. It absolutely depends on the situations you find the character in, so genre and play style will modify ST utility, but broadly speaking I tend to find it more useful than HT (if I had to weigh them against each other).
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Old 03-28-2022, 11:43 PM   #36
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post

Wealthy guy would do much better with a shield skill and no broadsword. Shield bashes would likely break the spear before an eye hit (33% chance of breakage parrying the shield vs 25% chance of failing a block).

.

NALOTH said everything 1 shield bash and a bit of luck and the spear is broken and our spearman is defenseless
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Old 03-29-2022, 04:59 AM   #37
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddGamer View Post
Is this correct, or am I missing something?
Wealth. Spend the 50 points on Wealth and you can hire a group to murder the crap out of spear guy. Yeah, he's dangerous but send twenty decent fighters against him and he will lose.

Points are not a good measure of combat effectiveness. They can be if all characters are built with the same design philosophy, but otherwise they just aren't.
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Old 03-29-2022, 08:49 AM   #38
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
"ST is optional" is somewhat true in mortal vs. mortal conflicts where nobody can have extraordinary abilities or gear. As soon as people can have arbitrary DR all over their body thanks to tech or magic, which can quite easily protect even the eyes (e.g., invisible or transparent plastic visors), and/or innate gifts, ST matters to punch through the DR. If the enemy is weird enough – say, with one or more of Damage Reduction, Homogeneous, Supernatural Durability, and Unkillable – even DR ceases to matter, and you just need damage output. In fantasy, so many things just don't care about your high-skill eye poke that you absolutely need ST if you're planning to use weapons rather than magic.

Of course, this burdens the GM with the duty of remembering all that stuff. Or just reading that the dragon has, on top of DR 20, Nictitating Membrane 20 that makes the eye poke kind of pointless. A lot of GMs run everything like a human with human vulnerabilities, in which case skill is indeed decisive.

I'm thinking about how Mr. Spear and Mr. Knight would fare in the PbP Dungeon Fantasy game I play in...


Of the four players, two of them would take down Mr. Knight marginally slower, One would take down Mr. Knight easily but be in trouble again spear, and one would take down Mr. Spear easily but need to take time with Mr. Knight. I'm also thinking of monsters Mr. Spear would struggle with compared to Mr. Knight. Knight does better against the massed bandit archers, the exploding bugs, and the line of undead... which are what I'm remembering as the "hard" encounters. Though part of that is one player has a high-skill high rate of fire DF archer, who takes care of most things the spear guy would take out.
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Old 03-29-2022, 08:56 AM   #39
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

My DFRPG game is nigh 600 points and actually no-one in it has 27 skill. However there are definitely 20+ ST characters involved

One of my guidelines is 'hit like a truck, use a penetrating weapon, hit a weakness; pick two of three' so ST is definitely emphasized for slugging purposes
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Old 03-29-2022, 08:58 AM   #40
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

Just a personal quibble here -- there is no such thing as a 58 point "knight".

The character posited here is a barely skilled swordsman with armor.
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