Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-14-2022, 05:12 PM   #1
Rasna
 
Rasna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

According to GURPS Martial Arts, p. 100:

DEFENSIVE ATTACK
This represents a cautious “probing” attack made from a full guard position, such as a jab with a thrusting weapon (including a fist or foot) or a quick, light tap with a swung one. The fighter must use a ready melee attack. He gets -2 damage or -1 damage per die, whichever is worse, but enjoys improved active defenses – see below. If he attempts to grab or grapple, his target gets +1 to defend.
- Movement: Step. Movement can come before or after the attack.
- Active Defense: Any. Before the attacker rolls, he must select a defensive benefit. If he attacks with a balanced weapon (including a hand or a shield), he may choose either +1 to Parry with one of his weapons or +1 to Block. He can assign the bonus to the weapon he’s striking with. If he attacks with an unbalanced weapon (one with “U” in its Parry statistic), he may claim +1 to Parry or Block with a different weapon, or opt to parry with the same weapon, at no bonus, despite using it to attack. If he kicks, he gets no Block or Parry bonus but +2 on rolls to avoid a Leg Grapple (p. 76) and on DX rolls to avoid falling.


Pretty much all Unready weapons are also Unbalanced weapons, so the question is: do they follow the same rules of not-Unready Unbalanced weapons? And if the answer in "no", what rules are applied in that case?

If the answer is "no", I can just think to two alternatives:
1) Unready weapons cannot be used with Defensive Attack - but I think that all attack options should be viable for all melee weapons;
2) Unready weapons with Defensive Attack become unbalanced but not unready after the attack.
Rasna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2022, 07:16 PM   #2
Farmer
 
Farmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

I think you may have confused Unready and Unbalanced. Any weapon can become Unready, some after any attack, some if you don't have enough strength, some because they were attacked or hit, and so on. Unready is a state, not an intrinsic quality.

It's more correct to say that Unbalanced weapons pretty much always become Unready weapons after use.

So if a weapon in Unready (for any reason) it can't be used for anything (that's what it means to be Unready - it's not ready for use) and you must spend a turn to ready it (or use some ability to do it as a free action if applicable).

I hope I've clarified this, and not made it more confusing!
__________________
Farmer
Mortal Wombat
"But if the while I think on thee, dear friend
All losses are restored and sorrows end."
Farmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2022, 07:42 PM   #3
Rasna
 
Rasna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Re: Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer View Post
I think you may have confused Unready and Unbalanced. Any weapon can become Unready, some after any attack, some if you don't have enough strength, some because they were attacked or hit, and so on. Unready is a state, not an intrinsic quality.

It's more correct to say that Unbalanced weapons pretty much always become Unready weapons after use.

So if a weapon in Unready (for any reason) it can't be used for anything (that's what it means to be Unready - it's not ready for use) and you must spend a turn to ready it (or use some ability to do it as a free action if applicable).

I hope I've clarified this, and not made it more confusing!
Actually I'm referring to specific classes of weapons that fall under the skills Two-Handed Axe/Mace and Polearm. Weapons like Maul, Great Axe, Oar and polearms with Reach 3 or more. All of them are unbalanced (of course!) but they also become unready after an attack. So for "Unready" weapons I'm referring not to any weapon in an unready state, but to these specific melee weapons that are unbalanced and always become unready after an attack.
Rasna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2022, 07:51 PM   #4
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
If the answer is "no", I can just think to two alternatives:
1) Unready weapons cannot be used with Defensive Attack - but I think that all attack options should be viable for all melee weapons;
2) Unready weapons with Defensive Attack become unbalanced but not unready after the attack.
The only RAW means of usefully combining defensive attack and a double-dagger weapon is if you have 3+ arms and can thus claim the bonus to a different weapon or shield.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2022, 07:55 PM   #5
Rasna
 
Rasna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Re: Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

Let's take an example.

If a ST 13 warrior does a Defensive Attack with a Maul (sw+5 cr / Parry 0U / ST 13‡), his Defensive Attack with the weapon will be:
1) sw+3 cr?
2) sw+3 cr, the weapon is unbalanced and cannot parry but it doesn't become undready after the attack because the Defensive Attack?
3) sw+3 cr, but the weapon becomes unready after the attack?

Last edited by Rasna; 02-14-2022 at 09:08 PM.
Rasna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2022, 07:58 PM   #6
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

Defensive attack doesn't interact with double dagger at all. If you aren't strong enough, a defensive attack makes the weapon unready, just like any other attack.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2022, 09:05 PM   #7
Rasna
 
Rasna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Re: Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Defensive attack doesn't interact with double dagger at all. If you aren't strong enough, a defensive attack makes the weapon unready, just like any other attack.
So doing a Defensive Attack with a "" melee weapon is a waste because the weapon inflicts less damage and still becomes unready after the attack. Am I right?
Rasna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2022, 09:21 PM   #8
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
So doing a Defensive Attack with a "‡" melee weapon is a waste because the weapon inflicts less damage and still becomes unready after the attack. Am I right?
Unless you have three arms or something. Or are using some other method to recover it. Isn't there an Exta Effort that does this?
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2022, 09:42 PM   #9
Farmer
 
Farmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
Actually I'm referring to specific classes of weapons that fall under the skills Two-Handed Axe/Mace and Polearm. Weapons like Maul, Great Axe, Oar and polearms with Reach 3 or more. All of them are unbalanced (of course!) but they also become unready after an attack. So for "Unready" weapons I'm referring not to any weapon in an unready state, but to these specific melee weapons that are unbalanced and always become unready after an attack.
OK, so it's simple. When a weapon is Unready, nothing can be done with it until you ready it. It becomes Unready AFTER you attack. So you can do a defensive attack, taking into account the rules for Unbalanced weapons, which means within that round you can parry with it (again, as per the rules). The Unready status is a consequence of the Unbalanced (and any other contributors), but so long as it is not Unready in the turn you use it, it's all good. It would not be available next turn unless you have a way to instantly ready it.
__________________
Farmer
Mortal Wombat
"But if the while I think on thee, dear friend
All losses are restored and sorrows end."
Farmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2022, 09:49 PM   #10
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Attack and Unready weapons

One strange thing I always wondered about B269:
“U” means the weapon is unbalanced: you cannot use it to parry if you have already used it to attack this turn (or vice versa).
Why is there a vice versa? I thought your "turn" began with your maneuver, so your inability to parry would count for the rest of your turn until your next one started...

About the only situation I can see a vice-versa mattering is if someone interrupted your Step>Attack w/ a Wait, so you parried first and then did your attack after?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer View Post
It's more correct to say that Unbalanced weapons pretty much always become Unready weapons after use.
B271's axe/mace weapons have a bunch of Parry 0U ones w/o any special dagger (single or double) on their ST... also the case for the Bastard Sword wielded 1H via Broadsword skill

also case for the Flail on B272

only really see single/double dagger stuff emerge for ST on the polearms further down on B272...

but B270 rules allow you to ignore that for double-daggar weapons if you have 1.5x the strength req, such as wielding a poleaxe w/ ST 18

- - -

this gives me an idea for an optional house rule that could be interesting... wondering what people think of it

We know if you have ST 12 you can wield a poleaxe without penalty... whereas you would be -1 to DX if you wielded it w/ ST 11.

But you suffer the usual problem of a double-dagger weapon: it becomes unready after each attack!

The same thing applies at ST 17 ... unlike ST 18 (it does not become unready) you're still suffering the unreadiness, at no advantage compared to ST11 besides the damage.

so my idea is: you can enjoy the benefit of 1.5x ST (no unreadiness) but only if you take DX penalties appropriate as if the 1.5x ST requirement was the ST srequirement

So for example the ST 12 person who wants to avoid unreadying his poleaxe has to suffer -6 to DX when using it, while the ST17 person only suffers -1 to DX.

This basically would reflect a sliding scale of how difficult it would be to attack without unreadying the weapon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Unless you have three arms or something. Or are using some other method to recover it. Isn't there an Exta Effort that does this?
Not that I can find, MA131 has "Rapid RecoverY" but that's just to emulate the Defensive Attack benefit of being able to parry with unbalanced weapons, it doesn't ready an unready weapon.

using a Ready w/o a Ready maneuver is usually covered by the Fast Draw skill but I think you need to try those at the start of a maneuver so I can't see it helping in a "lose your parry for the rest of the turn" situation

Last edited by Plane; 02-14-2022 at 09:54 PM.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
combat, low-tech, low-tech weapons, martial arts

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.