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Old 11-15-2020, 03:58 PM   #1
Sorenant
 
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Default Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

I'm referring to optional rules (or house rules) about adjusting muscle-powered damage, weapon types, armor types and how they interact with each other. Like KYOS for adjusting damage, Armor-Piercing Weapons, Blunt Trauma and Edged Weapons and unofficial solutions like applying AD(0.5) to swords or AD(2) to spears.
It's an old subject and both "is there really a problem?" and "if so, how to solve it?" has been debated over and over in the past but I'm curious to know it stood the test of time.

In my case KYOS has been enough to solve most of what I perceived as problems but I also let Armor-Piercing Weapons to let spears shine and use alternative values for some armor types. Other than that, I indirectly buff unbalanced weapons by allowing cinematic traits like Weapon Fencer and Equilibrist.
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Old 11-15-2020, 04:01 PM   #2
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

The main problem is that muscle-powered weapons deliver way too much damage compared to firearms.
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Old 11-15-2020, 04:40 PM   #3
Plane
 
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Default Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
The main problem is that muscle-powered weapons deliver way too much damage compared to firearms.
wondering which weapons we're comparing here...

The lowest damage gun I can find in basic does 1d basic damage: 278's Derringer available at TL5

To get the same penetrating power with a TL0 short bow (which does thrust) you would need one with a ST 13 draw weight... while the Derringer only takes ST 9 to wield w/0 penalty. An arrow (0.1) weighs twice as much as the derringer ammo (0.05)

Is this incredibly off? BL34 is a char who can lift 272 pounds overhead without needing to use Lifting skill or Extra Effort. I'm not exactly sure what draw weight they could use on a bow but it'd probably be decent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrin...gton_Derringer says 425 feet per second.

https://files.osgnetworks.tv/4/files...ight_chart.jpg shows how FPS can change with draw weight but I'm not sure where to place BL34 on it.
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Old 11-15-2020, 04:42 PM   #4
Sorenant
 
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Default Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
The main problem is that muscle-powered weapons deliver way too much damage compared to firearms.
I'm sure about it and I have an idea about using KYOS pricing scheme and BL progression but Adjusting Swing Damage damage table instead.
However I never had chance to test it because my group prefers cinematic games and KYOS works well for us.

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
wondering which weapons we're comparing here...
Usually these discussions centers around swing damage of melee weapons vs armor. The edge case would be something like ST 20 man easily getting past heavy plate armor (DR 9) with a sword (3d+3 damage), when it's virtually impossible to do so in reality.
As for muscle-powered ranged weapons, 1d damage is only achieved with bows that requires around ST 14-15 according to the realistic bow examples found on The Deadly Spring.

Last edited by Sorenant; 11-15-2020 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 11-15-2020, 05:04 PM   #5
Plane
 
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Default Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

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The edge case would be something like ST 20 man easily getting past heavy plate armor (DR 9) with a sword (3d+3 damage), when it's virtually impossible to do so in reality.
If the edge-case is swing-cutting, we should probably take into account LT102's optional rule where cutting converts to crushing unless twice the DR is overcome.

3d+3 can still overcome DR 18 but it'd happen less often.

ST 20 is also pretty impressive, right? That's polar bear tier ST, better than a grizzly.
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Old 11-15-2020, 05:06 PM   #6
Sorenant
 
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Default Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

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If the edge-case is swing-cutting, we should probably take into account LT102's optional rule where cutting converts to crushing unless twice the DR is overcome.

3d+3 can still overcome DR 18 but it'd happen less often.

ST 20 is also pretty impressive, right? That's polar bear tier ST, better than a grizzly.
Yes, that rule was specifically created for the purpose of solving the swing cut supremacy problem. However, there are people who has other preferences and thus uses other optional rules to solve it. In my case I use KYOS, which ends up reducing maximum basic swing damage to 2d+2. Kromm once commented that he prefers to give spears AD(2). Others just shrug and says it's a problem that should be solved from grounds up on GURPS 5th Edition. I created this thread out of curiosity, to know which solutions others adopted.
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Old 11-15-2020, 06:00 PM   #7
Plane
 
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Default Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

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Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
Kromm once commented that he prefers to give spears AD(2).
Spears do big injury like Huge Piercing I think because Impaling has a wider head which means it has less penetration value compared to the same amount of force focused into a narrower thing.

Like if a 1d impaling (like an arrow: x2 injury) were made narrower (normal piercing: x1 injury) then wouldn't you expect there to be an armor divisor of 2 to compensate?

The actual force wouldn't (no extra knockback or blunt trauma) but if we can't explain enhanced penetration w/ that then it'd need to be AD.
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Old 11-15-2020, 06:26 PM   #8
Tyneras
 
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Default Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

LogST (KYOS), the Deadly Spring, Armor as Dice and Blunt Trauma and Edged Weapons are my preferred set of tweaks, along with Low Tech Armor Design to make anything not easily covered by Low Tech.
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Old 11-15-2020, 06:33 PM   #9
Sorenant
 
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Default Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

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Spears do big injury like Huge Piercing I think because Impaling has a wider head which means it has less penetration value compared to the same amount of force focused into a narrower thing.
Size is not the sole determinant of damage type. Daggers, Rapiers and Heavy Spears, all of them deals impaling damage. If I recall correctly, piercing is for high speed projectiles that would deal crushing damage at slower speeds. As for the Bodkins, which I believe you're referring, I suspect the change in damage type is for the sake of game balance.
Regardless, as I said on the opening post, the merits and problems of each approach has already been extensively discussed in the past. My objective here is not to find the best and most realistic solution, but to see what other GMs seems to prefer.
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Old 11-15-2020, 07:22 PM   #10
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
The main problem is that muscle-powered weapons deliver way too much damage compared to firearms.
Not at ST 10. The problem is that the scaling with ST is way off; going from ST 10 to ST 14 should be something like +15-20% armor penetration if you don't also use a heavier weapon, and +30-40% if you double your weapon weight.
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