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Old 05-09-2020, 01:32 AM   #1
FeiLin
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Combat related stuff

1) IIrc, it’s possible to use the default of any technique (save those that “default to defaults”); does that also mean I can create a “temporary” combat technique based on an attack/action, and say modify it by just subtracting 2 (or 1 per die, whichever is worse), as per MA90 (unless said attack/action already includes something similar, of course)?

2) If I’m opting for techniques that are mostly hard and I choose two, the first level is the same cost as raising the skill they’re based on (assuming they’re the same), and even though further levels cost less, I still feel there’s a very low threshold for how many techniques worth it (no more than three based on the same skill). What’s your view of multiple techniques based on the same skill; are they worth it or is it a trade off a character makes (CP-wise) to allow the player (or Gm) to just feel good by having {awesome technique} fleshed out explicitly?

3) Is there a Fast-Draw penalty for weapon size (such as bulk or reach)?

4) A bit more philosophical: how come defence (such as Shield) is half skill +3 (or equivalent); is defence so powerful that it needs higher CP cost?
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Old 05-09-2020, 05:17 AM   #2
Maz
 
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Default Re: Combat related stuff

1) What do you mean by "temporary"? If you want, you can create new techniques, using all of the rules. "-1 per die" is just one way to modify a technique.


2) Instead of seeing techniques as "allowing something new" see them as "buying off penalties to do one specific maneuver". So yes, it is not cost effective to buy many techniques for one skill. Techniques are for when you want your character to be really good at something very specific.
Also be aware that some techniques are much more generally good than others. As you are going to use them very often. Stuff like Targeted Attack or Feint for instance, compared to maybe Choke Hold.
Techniques are a way to specialise.

3) you could use the rules from MA p.104, although they are mostly for opposed fast-draw rolls. I think Tactical Shooting, Action or Gun-Fu have rules for position of the weapon (belt, pocket, ankle and so on) (sorry I don't remember which).

4) Yes. GURPS is designed so defenses are lower than attacks. At high skill levels though, those defenses are still going to feel really high. Remember you can get bonuses to your defense from stuff like Retreat, Shields/Cloaks, Acrobatics or, if suing those rules; Extra Effort.
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Old 05-09-2020, 05:19 AM   #3
johndallman
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Default Re: Combat related stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
What’s your view of multiple techniques based on the same skill; are they worth it or is it a trade off a character makes (CP-wise) to allow the player (or GM) to just feel good by having {awesome technique} fleshed out explicitly?
I generally reckon one Technique per skill is cost-effective, if you have a need for it, but if you need more than one, it's generally better to raise the skill. There may be exceptions to this if you have a particular need for a technique that has a large default penalty.
Quote:
3) Is there a Fast-Draw penalty for weapon size (such as bulk or reach)?
No.
Quote:
4) A bit more philosophical: how come defence (such as Shield) is half skill +3 (or equivalent); is defence so powerful that it needs higher CP cost?
This probably goes back to the original playtesting of Man to Man, which would be where that rule was tested. One argument for this is that defence usually negates attack, rather than being a Contest of Skills.
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Old 05-09-2020, 07:53 AM   #4
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Combat related stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
1) IIrc, it’s possible to use the default of any technique (save those that “default to defaults”); does that also mean I can create a “temporary” combat technique based on an attack/action, and say modify it by just subtracting 2 (or 1 per die, whichever is worse), as per MA90 (unless said attack/action already includes something similar, of course)?
Are you talking about being able to basically create new Techniques on the fly, using them at their default? For example, you're up against a foe with no armor and few HP, but who has a phenomenal Parry, so you take -1/die to damage in exchange for inflicting a -2 to his Parry? I think there's an optional rule somewhere in Martial Arts (although I can't find it), intended primarily for cinematic campaigns, that lets you do just that. It does suggest that you require the player to come up with a name for it on the spot, with his character shouting it out as he/she performs it (I did say cinematic, right?). You can see an example of it in action in the opening blurb to the "Techniques" chapter.

Do keep in mind that you aren't allowed to get net attack bonus; any bonus from things like reduced damage needs to be "spent" on other benefits (like reduced enemy defenses in my example above) or it's lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
2) If I’m opting for techniques that are mostly hard and I choose two, the first level is the same cost as raising the skill they’re based on (assuming they’re the same), and even though further levels cost less, I still feel there’s a very low threshold for how many techniques worth it (no more than three based on the same skill). What’s your view of multiple techniques based on the same skill; are they worth it or is it a trade off a character makes (CP-wise) to allow the player (or Gm) to just feel good by having {awesome technique} fleshed out explicitly?
From the perspective of invested points, it's quite rarely worth it to invest in more than 2 Techniques, and often just picking one is a good idea. Exceptions can be made for Techniques that can stack, of course - investing in all of Counterattack, Kick, and Targeted Attack (Kick/Neck), can be worth it, for example (defend when the enemy attacks, then leverage the defense penalty from Counterattack on your turn to kick the foe in the neck). Keep in mind that defensive Techniques sort of count as half Techniques in this analysis (every +1 to a defensive Technique would require +2 to skill to match).

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
3) Is there a Fast-Draw penalty for weapon size (such as bulk or reach)?
Fast-Draw seems to very much be a binary "You can or your can't" type of situation, with the GM making the call. I could see cause to penalize it for larger weapons, but I'd argue this would be more for allowing Fast-Draw of things you usually can't Fast-Draw, rather than making things you normally can harder, and would be cinematic in nature.

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Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
4) A bit more philosophical: how come defence (such as Shield) is half skill +3 (or equivalent); is defence so powerful that it needs higher CP cost?
Defense is indeed very powerful, particularly because in GURPS it's extremely easy for a single hit to knock a character out of commission. Additionally, if your probability to Block/Parry was the same as your probability to hit, GURPS combat would take an excessively long time. As it stands, with two skill 12 combatants, there's a roughly 46% probability for each attack to land a hit (74% chance of a success on attack, 62.5% chance of a failure on parry). If full skill were used for Parry, that would plummet to 19%.
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Old 05-09-2020, 09:36 AM   #5
Plane
 
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Default Re: Combat related stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
1) IIrc, it’s possible to use the default of any technique (save those that “default to defaults”); does that also mean I can create a “temporary” combat technique based on an attack/action, and say modify it by just subtracting 2 (or 1 per die, whichever is worse), as per MA90 (unless said attack/action already includes something similar, of course)?
The closest I know of to a restriction is MA52's "Unique Technique" perk, but that's only required to use "forbidden" techniques.

Reading 89-95 I'm not entirely sure what that means, so hopefully we can figure it out by examples where we see that perk built into the cost of some templates.

For example in Dungeon Fantasy 11 (Power-Ups) there is:
pg 12 Unique Technique (Running Attack)
pg 32 Unique Technique (Double-Draw)
pg 33 UT (QuickShooting)
pg 34 UT (Botte Segrete and Coup de Jarnac)
pg 35 UT (Disappear)

Pg 7 has "A technique that would otherwise be off-limits, alongside
a Unique Technique perk (p 6) that opens the door to it." as an explanation...

But I guess I don't really understand where all the default limits are meant to lie. Unusual Backgrounds (which UT is, perk-level) can be subjective like that.

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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
1) What do you mean by "temporary"? If you want, you can create new techniques, using all of the rules. "-1 per die" is just one way to modify a technique.
I think by temporary he means on-the-fly without actually investing anything into learning it, like for example if you want to punch some super-large hard-to-miss thing (where the SM bonus makes it easy to hit) you can eat a huge penalty to get a massive damage bonus.

That's probably where GMs need to step in and say "I'm going to cap how much damage you can buy by taking penalties" though at what point they draw a line could vary by GM.
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Old 05-09-2020, 11:16 AM   #6
Maz
 
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Default Re: Combat related stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I think by temporary he means on-the-fly without actually investing anything into learning it, like for example if you want to punch some super-large hard-to-miss thing (where the SM bonus makes it easy to hit) you can eat a huge penalty to get a massive damage bonus.

That's probably where GMs need to step in and say "I'm going to cap how much damage you can buy by taking penalties" though at what point they draw a line could vary by GM.
That makes sense. I would probably not allow it as it sounds open for abuse and people spending time in an active combat trying to min/max a specific attack. Which might be OK in some games, but with 1-sec combat turns I want combat to flow as fast as possible re. real time.
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Old 05-09-2020, 11:16 PM   #7
FeiLin
 
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Default Re: Combat related stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I think by temporary he means on-the-fly without actually investing anything into learning it, like for example if you want to punch some super-large hard-to-miss thing (where the SM bonus makes it easy to hit) you can eat a huge penalty to get a massive damage bonus.

That's probably where GMs need to step in and say "I'm going to cap how much damage you can buy by taking penalties" though at what point they draw a line could vary by GM.
Yeah, sorry, a bit unclear what I meant. I meant pretty much what you meant; adapt to whatever you’re facing at the moment by seeing the technique rules as more of a toolbox that players have at their disposal.

Perhaps it’s open to abuse, and it would probably be slower (at least to begin with), but I could also see it as a different yet potentially interesting gaming experiencing, which (hopefully) incentivises players become more familiar with the system. “Your wanna do {X}? Well, read the rules same see if you can find what you want, or otherwise use the closest as precedent and suggest something of your own.” Of course, it may be that it’s unnecessary too tweak every move that they do with the techniques options, but it could be a nice option for customisation – at least for cinematic games.
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Old 05-09-2020, 11:37 PM   #8
FeiLin
 
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Default Re: Combat related stuff

Btw, was I right in recalling that at least technique listed in say MA that have defaults (that aren’t themselves to defaults) are available to characters to use at well?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Keep in mind that defensive Techniques sort of count as half Techniques in this analysis (every +1 to a defensive Technique would require +2 to skill to match).
That’sa good point, so defensive stuff are somewhat more worthwhile.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Fast-Draw seems to very much be a binary "You can or your can't" type of situation, with the GM making the call. I could see cause to penalize it for larger weapons, but I'd argue this would be more for allowing Fast-Draw of things you usually can't Fast-Draw, rather than making things you normally can harder, and would be cinematic in nature.

To me, it seems odd that Fast-Drawing a knife should be equally difficult as drawing a great sword, because it’s heavier (bulk) and longer piece to remove from the sheathe (reach). Although, I haven’t used or really seen Fast-Draw irl, so I wouldn’t know for sure.

How would you go about penalising it?
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Old 05-10-2020, 08:18 AM   #9
malloyd
 
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Default Re: Combat related stuff

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Reading 89-95 I'm not entirely sure what that means, so hopefully we can figure it out by examples where we see that perk built into the cost of some templates.
It's a patch on an inherent flaw of a playable skill system - things you can learn to do in reality are almost infinitely divisible and recombinable, but no game wants to deal with millions of different skills.

The intent of a Unique Technique is this is a thing that you actually need to train to do, and which isn't so common that anybody learning skill X would learn it, but it also isn't so separate as to justify an entirely new skill. Once you have learned how to do it at all, it just becomes part of skill X, just like all the thousands of things skill X already allows you to do but which realistically you could learn to do (and improve) without actually knowing skill X.

Incidentally flipside of that, the perks for learning some bit of skill X without the rest of skill X also exist. As Skill Adaptation (when you attach it to another skill), One Task Wonder (when you attach it to an attribute) or Shtick (when you don't attach it to anything, it just works). Or you can call them new skills as the generic undefined skills at each difficulty level (Hobby, Professional or Expert skills).

You need this sort of flexibility because skills aren't "real" - they're convenient clusters of lots of different things that are often learned together, but which can be, and sometimes are, separated. Which is also the issue techniques address at a slightly less separate level really.

Most flexible rules, definitely including all generic modifier and trait design systems, were actually designed to work in one direction - you start with the thing you want to model and use the rules to construct it. Flipping them around and using the rule to decide what is possible is basically the opposite of what they were written for. Sometimes it will give you a reasonable enough result, but it may not.
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