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Old 05-04-2020, 12:04 PM   #21
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
The corollary to rule zero is this:


"The GM must have the fun of the players as his foremost concern"


Without that rule, rule zero can easily wreck as much harm as good on a game. Players need to be able to trust their Game Masters.
Agreed. That is why I originally started to GM, I stopped having fun in other people's games because the GMs were changing the rules in mid-campaign to favor a specific NPC or nerf a specific PC build, which was a violation of trust. I understand that GMs want to tell a story, but they always need to understand that the players are also part of the story as well, and that level of participation requires trust.
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Old 05-04-2020, 12:32 PM   #22
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

I always find it astounding to think that people need a rule to tell them to change the rules. I still want to know: what happens if the GM decides to exercise Rule 0 in order to delete Rule Zero? Do all your game books implode?

I remember once one of the authors of Continuum: Roleplaying in the Yet answering a question about why they didn't include a form of Rule Zero in their book. (The game was published around the same time as D&D Third Edition, which is where I think the term Rule Zero comes from, and Rule Zero was all the rage.) His response was that nobody needed his permission to change the rules, so why should he waste space in the book explicitly giving that permission?

"Rules" has always been a poor description of what they are. They're tools that the GM can employ in the running of a game. How you use your tools is up to you.
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Old 05-04-2020, 12:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

My group doesn't know the rules inside and out. Can anyone really considering the complexity? I'd think even the best have to refer to the rules sometimes.

As a player that knows some rulings, especially if I'm planning to do something specific during play, I want to know I can ASK the GM about doing it and refer to the rules in the book suggesting it's legal without the GM getting all upset because he/she feels I'm undermining them.

I think it's good that others at the table are familiar with the rules, especially for their character. I think some GMs need to relax a little and accept that it's too hard to know all the rules inside and out and allow the players to question them sometimes.

If they overrule, great. I'll accept it, but can I get a rewind? Because my whole plan of attack was based on what the book told me was legal.

The players NEED to know the rules so they can properly act. If they don't understand they can do a rapid strike or that they get to move have their move during an all-out attack, or even a retreat defense, they're just gimping themselves. But when they try to take advantage of something and the GM doesn't know it, are they just not allowed to because the GM doesn't know the rules? Or should they have one of those dreaded "rules lawyer" moments where they end up undermining the GM to prove it's there and available?

And what's worse, a player that knows the rules better than the GM and has to "undermine" them to execute their plans, or a GM who thinks they know the rules perfectly and won't ever listen to a player's objection?


The worst part for me nowadays is the other 3 players we play with often look at me when they're questioning a rule. I try to steer them to the GM because I know he doesn't like me knowing more than him.

Gurps has gotten to the point for me where I'm afraid to even look in the books on how something would be ruled. I'm afraid to plan something out like a bank heist or an assassination because I'm not sure if the GM will understand the rules well enough and then he'll just rule against the book and my whole plan will be foiled. I try to get details on how it all rules and get book pages for reference, but I know he'll just hate it and feel undermined if I bring it up. So I sort of have to play dumb and stick to the basic "Attack" "Defend" play with nothing fancy.

Last edited by Boge; 05-04-2020 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 05-04-2020, 01:57 PM   #24
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

There's one quote my music appreciation teacher in college used; I think he attributed it to Beethoven, but I could be mistaken on that account:

"To truly appreciate music, you must know the rules. To create music, you must know when to break them."

The same, I find, is true of being a GM. You must know the rules of the game in order to know when and how to break them to keep things moving smoothly.
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Old 05-04-2020, 02:06 PM   #25
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
There's one quote my music appreciation teacher in college used; I think he attributed it to Beethoven, but I could be mistaken on that account:

"To truly appreciate music, you must know the rules. To create music, you must know when to break them."

The same, I find, is true of being a GM. You must know the rules of the game in order to know when and how to break them to keep things moving smoothly.
I think that's a great quote. Oddly, though, I just did a quick search and didn't find any reference to it online. The principle, though, I think works in many things. You generally need to understand how something works before you can understand how to improve it.
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Old 05-04-2020, 02:38 PM   #26
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Also – and I don't expect agreement, but this is important to me and certainly how I see it – those games fail at interactive storytelling because they generally offer rules for that. GURPS takes the stance that interactive storytelling comes almost entirely from the players of the game and doesn't require rules. Thus, by focusing its attention away from that, it does a good job of supporting it.
Actually, Kromm, this articulates the problem I've had with a number of rules-lite systems that are "story-telling" games: They have mechanics for the story-telling, and GURPS has mechanics for when the story is in the back-seat. The "story-telling" games have mechanics to tell the players how to tell the story, GURPS has mechanics to tell you how to determine the outcomes of actions.

Thank you. I haven't been able to articulate it myself, but this is my problem with them.
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Old 05-04-2020, 03:43 PM   #27
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

The flipside, I've found, is the guy who insists "the rulebook always overrules the GM". Those guys I can do without.
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Old 05-04-2020, 03:48 PM   #28
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
I think that's a great quote. Oddly, though, I just did a quick search and didn't find any reference to it online. The principle, though, I think works in many things. You generally need to understand how something works before you can understand how to improve it.

I usually associate with the writing excuses podcast talking about writing. One of the hosts was a music major though.
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Old 05-04-2020, 04:25 PM   #29
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

Some people are looking for a "black box" into which they put starting conditions and out of which comes results. Simulation is a perfectly valid outlook for players and GMs. Some people want to tell stories and flowing narratives, narrativeism is a perfectly valid approach. Some people are looking to manipulate the numbers and select certain variables to cause an in game effect, Gamest is another way to play these games. The problem is when someone looking for simulation is playing with a GM that is more into narrativeism. When someone that wants to select various skills for a specific in game effect plays with someone that's looking to represent the way metal reacts to impacts, you'll get static.

Expectations need to be laid out and long before a character is made or a die is rolled a compromise in style and feel has to be arrived at or the game is doomed to last 2 or 3 sessions and the drop off the face of the earth (best case, worst case is if people like to suffer or have no where else to play and every session is arguments and fighting).
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Old 05-04-2020, 04:37 PM   #30
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

I have some rules-lawyer tendencies, but I have no objection to the GM ruling against the book, so long as he/she is consistent, and the ruling isn't a complete blindside. I enjoy explaining things and correcting errors, because I legitimately assume it will improve the experience for whoever was mistaken to know the way things are designed to work, but I fear my tone may sometimes come across as condescending or similar (I typically try to couch things with phrases like "the way I understand it..." and if I'm not the GM will usually try to make it clear I'll acquiesce to whatever the GM ultimately rules, but not being terribly socially adept I suspect I've missed the mark in the past).

And, yeah, on the sliding scale of narrativist vs simulationist, I think I lean pretty heavily on the simulationist side. I suspect there's a bit of a correlation between rules-lawyering and simulationism.
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