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Old 08-15-2015, 07:54 PM   #1
Bruno
 
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Default I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts

As the thread title says, I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts. Or something a lot like it anyways.

Another thread reminded me that I don't like the vague built-in Achilles' Heel of "Occasional or better" frequency - when the Occasional flaw is priced the same as the Very Common one, that just offends my sense of consistency.

There's also the annoying overlap between SD and Unkillable - I just can't shake the feeling that a creature that wants Unkillable 2 or 3 shouldn't be paying full cost if they already have SD (or alternately they should have a discount on SD if they are buying full-fledged Unkillable).

So, doodling around, I have this build, coming out to 145 points if you don't use Multiplicative Modifiers.

Extra Basic Move +6 (Accessibility, Only below 1/3 HP and above -1 HP, -40%) [18]
Injury Tolerance: Unbreakable Bones (Cosmic, can't be crippled at all, +300%, Accessibility, Only when 0 HP or more, -20%) [32]
Immunity to Pain [30]
Immunity to Subdual [40]
Unkillable 1 (Accessibility, To -5xHT Only, -20%; Achilles' Heel, Some Occasional Thing, -30%) [25]

Notes:
Extra Basic Move +6 is to counter the halving of Move when you're dropped below 1/3 HP - but only until the new "below 0 HP" breakpoint. I chose 6 Basic Move for the generic template as a bit of an "everyman" value. Yes, the average person has Move 5, but folks with 150 point advantages tend to be a little exceptional at least, so I erred on the side of a little caution.

Cosmic, Can't be crippled at all, +300% was priced to make sure it cost more than the next best thing, which is Independant Limbs, Instant Reattachment, Reattachment Only (35 points). This puts the base cost of this version of Unbreakable Bones at 40 points, and then there's the Accessibility to make it line up with the way Supernatural Durability works.

Immunity to Pain, because they've got Immunity to Pain.
Immunity to Subdual, because that's the immunity to physical stun, KO, blah blah. Immunity to Subdual is from this thread. Feel free to replace with 20 levels of Hard to Subdue. This is a little overkill in some games, but it provides immunity to KOing or physically stunning spells, stupidly high level Malediction Afflictions of same, etc etc. In some games that really matters, in some games you might consider 10 levels to be "good enough" and never mind actual Immunity.

I feel pretty confident in the valuing of new non-Accessibility modifiers in this build; the Accessibility values were tweaked to try and get something close to 150 points in value that still felt vaguely defensible. That means they're sort of arbitrary, and I'd be happy with arguments that some of them are worth another -5% to -15%. If so, then Supernatural Durability might be overpriced by about 10% - that's not a bad margin of error for a big blob trait that's basically been grandfathered in from the previous edition.
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Old 08-15-2015, 09:15 PM   #2
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Default Re: I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts

Note that Immunity to pain allows you to completely ignore knockdown and stunning rolls, painful and stunning afflictions and so on.

So the immunity to subdual seems a bit useless..
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Old 08-15-2015, 09:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts

And a smaller/alternative thing:

And as for the move: I would use the same method as is used to modify ST based damage to have modifiers for natural attacks.

That is: Pay for the difference in cost.

The effect seems about +50% cosmic in power(avoid drawback). Thus each move would cost 7.5 points, not 5.

So the cost would be 2.5 points*your move to make your move immune to a drawback.
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Old 08-16-2015, 09:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
Note that Immunity to pain allows you to completely ignore knockdown and stunning rolls, painful and stunning afflictions and so on.

So the immunity to subdual seems a bit useless..
There's exactly zero overlap between the two. Immunity to Subdual is trying to extend the Hard to Subdue advantage into an Immunity, which doesn't impact knockdown and stunning, painful afflictions, or anything else covered by Immunity to Pain.

Quote:
Each level of Hard to Subdue gives +1 to any HT roll to avoid unconsciousness – whether as a result of injury, drugs, or ultra-tech weapons – and to resist supernatural abilities that cause unconsciousness.
I also rolled Immunity to Physical Stun into that, somewhat mistakenly, but since that seems to be included in Immunity to pain, that's handy. I presume Immunity to Pain does not actually provide immunity to Mental Stun, which GURPS tends to remember to qualify with the word... because that's stuff like confusion and fright, not pain.
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Last edited by Bruno; 08-16-2015 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 08-16-2015, 09:57 AM   #5
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Default Re: I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
There's exactly zero overlap between the two. Immunity to Subdual is trying to extend the Hard to Subdue advantage into an Immunity, which doesn't impact knockdown and stunning, painful afflictions, or anything else covered by Immunity to Pain.
Where does Supernatural durability say that you are immune to subdual?

Am I missing something in the text?

To my reading of the advantage it only seems to be Immunity to pain on that part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B89
Injury comes off
HP as usual, and you suffer knock-
back, but you are completely immune
to shock, physical stun, and knockout.
You don’t need High Pain Threshold –
this ability includes that one, and is far
more potent!
Seems to be exactly Immunity to pain.
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Old 08-16-2015, 04:20 AM   #6
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Default Re: I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Extra Basic Move +6 (Accessibility, Only below 1/3 HP and above -1 HP, -40%) [18]
From the "How cancel the 1/3 HP effect" Thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
To be clear, it did not. I have the Basic Set Third Edition right here. It says only "If you are hurt in combat, you are not stunned and do not have the normal DX penalty on your next turn" and "3, 2, 1 hit points left: Your Move is cut in half; you are reeling from the wounds." However, it would be reasonable for full-on Immunity to Pain (in GURPS Powers: Divine Favor) to provide this benefit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Injury Tolerance: Unbreakable Bones (Cosmic, can't be crippled at all, +300%, Accessibility, Only when 0 HP or more, -20%) [32]
Consider Injury Tolerance: Diffuse (Only immunity to crippling injuries -80%)[20]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Immunity to Subdual [40]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Immunity to Unconsciousness [30] is only slightly better than Doesn't Sleep [20], and I can accept its pricing given that Coma is +250% while Sleep is +150% as an Affliction. I also agree that it gives you additional options. For sanely played characters, this isn't the same as Immunity to Being Taken Prisoner . . . the fair cost of which would be the price of Warp (Accessibility, Only when taken prisoner, -40%; Reflexive, +40%) [100], or 100 points, because that's roughly what it does for you. Unconsciousness ought to be a rare cause of capture in plausible stories most imprisonment should result from surrender by the prisoners, betrayal by their apparent allies, or (at its most violent) grappling and restraint. Thus, I'd be hesitant to price Immunity to Unconsciousness on the grounds that it's Immunity to Being Taken Prisoner. Mostly, it's Immunity to Being Bored While Waiting For Your PC To Wake Up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Unkillable 1 (Accessibility, To -5xHT Only, -20%; Achilles' Heel, Some Occasional Thing, -30%) [25]
Unkillable 1 isn't enough. People with Supernatural Durability only die from taking 10Xhp in one hit, or from their vulnerability, they can keep going past past -10xHP if neither of those conditions is met.

Last edited by NineDaysDead; 08-16-2015 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 08-16-2015, 09:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineDaysDead View Post
From the "How cancel the 1/3 HP effect" Thread:
Oh, well then that solves that problem. Makes the template annoyingly cheaper though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineDaysDead View Post
Consider Injury Tolerance: Diffuse (Only immunity to crippling injuries -80%)[20]
I flat out refuse to (no offense). It can't cost less than being cripple-able but you can take one second to put a severed arm back on - after picking your arm up again, in combat. It has to cost more than that. Ergo, it has to cost more than 35 points.
The price for that is RAW, right out of Powers where that form of IT was introduced. Do we have an example for that Accessibility for IT:Diffuse?

(Now whether the 35 points is excessive is another question, but that's for another thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineDaysDead View Post
Unkillable 1 isn't enough. People with Supernatural Durability only die from taking 10Xhp in one hit, or from their vulnerability, they can keep going past past -10xHP if neither of those conditions is met.
Ah, dangit. That interaction of conditions is much more complicated than I read it as last night.
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Old 08-16-2015, 10:08 AM   #8
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Default Re: I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts

Mmph.

So. New version looks like this, costs 155 points (again, close to the RAW cost):
  • Injury Tolerance: Unbreakable Bones (Accessibility, only at 0 HP or more, -20%; Cosmic: Can't be crippled at all, +300%) [38]
  • Immunity to Pain [30]
  • Immunity to Unconsciousness [30]
  • Unkillable 1 (Achilles' Heel, Megadamage, -10%; Achilles' Heel, Something Occasional, -30%, Cosmic: Can keep going after -10xHP, +50%) [55]

I don't like pricing Cosmic: Can keep going after -10xHP as a simple Avoiding Drawbacks. That's not a Drawback of the advantage, that's a Drawback of being a character in GURPS. I went with it anyways, because +50% gives the metatrait a point total very close to the original advantage.

I'm open for lots of debate on the value of that enhancement. On the one hand, taking the Achilles' Heel limitations off makes the character functionally immortal, with infinite hit points. That seems like it should cost more than 75 points :P
On the other hand, the infinite hit-points are all on the far-negative end. Without taking the rest of the package, you are suffering big penalties or are unconscious, and will take a very long time to heal back up to a point where you don't pass out every time you try to do something. I'm not sure all those negative hit-points are worth, say, a +300% Godlike Tricks cosmic - it's not that good.
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Old 08-16-2015, 10:15 AM   #9
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Default Re: I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
  • Immunity to Unconsciousness [30]
Where do you get that?

The whole Supernatural Durability thing talks about pain effects and Dying nothing about unconsciousness.
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Old 08-16-2015, 12:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: I think I figured out how to build Supernatural Durability out of spare parts

Knockout isn't listed under the stuff that Immunity to Pain in Divine Favor (page 10). It is one of the things someone with Supernatural Durability is immune to. It's a little unclear to me if they're supposed to be immune to the consciousness checks for being below 0 HP as well; I have erred on the side that they are. If they aren't, Knockout would be a category under Unconsciousness, and worth 20 points instead of 30.
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