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Old 03-30-2011, 02:12 PM   #61
JCurwen3
 
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
For a really EVIL combo: Penalize the characters HT, THEN age them.
HA! A real jerk move! I like it!
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:40 PM   #62
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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We don't miss it. We don't _care_ about it. What's the point in making people older if they aren't going to be impaired by it?
If you or others feel that way, that's fine.

But the initial point of my post on Leech (Steal Youth) was that it seemed ridiculously overpriced for what it did. After all, it legitimately ages a person, and although it may force them to suffer attribute loss depending on how old the character is and how much aging is done, they could very possibly avoid that with good HT rolls.

And one answer I got back was:
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In my opinion, it isn't priced for its' effectiveness if used on the player's opponents. It is priced for its' effectiveness if used on the player's characters.
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It violates the player's concept of the character. It doesn't have to be effective (combat-wise; mechanically speaking) to do this. Player's don't like things that violate their character concepts.
And although I disagreed with why the author(s) of the power would have calculated that into the price, I agreed and still agree with SunRunners_Fire that that's the only decent possible rationale for the high cost of the ability considering the really really low value of it in combat.

And if it really is true that people who actually care about their PCs and their character concepts would find being aged a very big deal (I know I would), even if it wouldn't produce any attribute loss nor bring you near having to make aging rolls for years to come, then, in fact, respectfully, there is a very big "point in making people older [even] if they aren't going to be impaired by it". If a player in my campaign didn't roleplay his 20 year old PC really caring that he'd just been aged to 35, having lost 15 years of his life (but still 15 years away from the first aging check), even if he knew the campaign might not last over 15 game-time years, I'd penalize the crap out of him for not roleplaying being a person, unless they had mental traits or a previous track record of roleplaying that justified it (for instance, being on the edge, suicidal, depressed, uncaring, having expressed a persistent interest in being older, etc.). I doubt I'd award a single CP to this player until they started behaving like someone who felt robbed of 15 years of their life, bringing them 15 years closer to aging decline and death, letting the previous (poor roleplaying) apathy be explained away as denial, the first stage of grief over their loss.

Wouldn't you care if, in real life, someone had used some ultra-tech or magical ability (assuming hypothetically those things currently existed or were possible) to make you suddenly 15 years older, even if you were nowhere near middle age prior to that? I would be grief-stricken and homicidal, personally, but, you know, I like being alive.
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:46 PM   #63
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
For a really EVIL combo: Penalize the characters HT, THEN age them.
Actually, think about it. A Leech of a very high enough level that had Steal HT and also Steal Youth, with Selectivity, could be ridiculously dangerous, leaving characters to face potentially several aging rolls and very possibly permanent attribute loss. But they also would have to be ludicrously high level (or moderately high level if we went with your very reasonable suggestion to assume month was an error and replace it with year for Steal Youth rates).
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:55 PM   #64
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post

Wouldn't you care if, in real life, someone had used some ultra-tech or magical ability (assuming hypothetically those things currently existed or were possible) to make you suddenly 15 years older, even if you were nowhere near middle age prior to that? I would be grief-stricken and homicidal, personally, but, you know, I like being alive.
Sure I would. But a power that is only useful for ******* the target off at you is not a power I would want or one that I would use. The original Youth Leech is a good deal for an evil character if you get it as an alternative attack. It's a lousy attack, but a cheaper approach than Unaging at present prices. Even better if you get advantages with an aging Nuisance effect.
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:31 PM   #65
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Sure I would. But a power that is only useful for ******* the target off at you is not a power I would want or one that I would use. The original Youth Leech is a good deal for an evil character if you get it as an alternative attack. It's a lousy attack, but a cheaper approach than Unaging at present prices. Even better if you get advantages with an aging Nuisance effect.
I'm confused - how is it a "cheaper approach"? Leech (Steal Youth, +300%) is 100 points for level one (which is only one month/second, or, if we take Bruno's reasonable suggestion, assume it's meant to be one year/second but is not RAW), plus 16 points per additional level. As an Alternative Attack (since level 1 alone is 100 pts, it would have to be an "alternative" to a pretty costly attack power), it would cost 20 pts (plus 4 points per additional level).

Still more expensive by 5 points (at level 1) than Unaging [15] (even more expensive than Unaging with Age Control, +20%, which would be worth 18 pts and allow you to pass as a normally aging person and not an Unaging "monster"), for more effort, and a risk of being "found out" and hunted down to be killed (especially if they know the trick to getting back lost youth is killing you). The only perk is something we can both agree is basically worthless to the Leech, namely, it's effects in combat (even if we assume it's supposed to be year instead of month).

It doesn't really seem like a very good deal at all, even at Alternative Attack 1/5 pricing.
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:41 PM   #66
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

A lot of this probably has to do with the type of effect. Permanent damage is a problematic mechanic for any ongoing game; players usually prefer either death (because they can just create a new character) or effects that can be reversed in some way. GURPS has a tendency to handle problem mechanics by just making them grossly expensive (though since permanent damage is mostly a problem when it targets PCs, and NPCs don't really have a point budget, this seems like a poor solution).

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Old 03-30-2011, 05:25 PM   #67
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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I'm confused - how is it a "cheaper approach"? Leech (Steal Youth, +300%) is 100 points for level one (which is only one month/second, .
Only if you aren't slapping a bunch of limitations on it, and since it is already useless for combat, there's no reason not to pile them on.
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Old 03-30-2011, 05:34 PM   #68
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Only if you aren't slapping a bunch of limitations on it, and since it is already useless for combat, there's no reason not to pile them on.
Okay, you've got me there!
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:42 PM   #69
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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I'm not so sure I agree, but it could just be a difference of opinion. I see the aging (or rejuvenation) that would come from Unaging with Age Control as no more of a transformation than having your location changed on you (with Warp).

Let's try a thought experiment, tackling it from a different angle. Your character starts the game at 25 years old. Ten years later, at 35, for some in-game reason the GM allows him to purchase Unaging with Age Control (at the RAW +20% 10x normal rate level) with saved character points. The character spends the next year reverse-aging himself with his own ability back to 25 (it takes him a year to rejuvenate ten years). A month later, he meets Inevitable-Death-Man, who has an Affliction (Negate Advantage, Unaging (with Age Control added into the cost); Extended Duration, Permanent, +300%) and he uses it on your character. It's clear to me that your character would lose his Unaging, along with his ability to control his own age over time (and it's really Permanent, no back-doors or workarounds or affliction healing will work for this one). What seems quite wrong would be to say that he would revert back to his natural age of 35 (remember, if we weren't talking about a simple 10 year difference, but a 200 year difference, this one Negate Advantage Affliction would kill him, and it would be an awful death leaving behind a withered old corpse, with only loads of aging HT checks to give him any chance to vainly attempt and ultimately fail to resist going quietly into that dark night). To me, it seems clear he'd be physically 25 and then age normally again (and be ****** at the jerk move of this total douche-bag, but that's another story). Would you disagree with that assessment?
No. That is what should happen. Whatever happened before an advantage was negated has nothing to do with it. When it is gone, then you live from that point on without it. Negation does not roll back the clock.
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If you agree with those assessments (as I clearly do), then we can't say aging counts as a "transformation". And so you wouldn't need to slap Extended Duration, Permanent on an Affliction that uses Unaging (Age Control) to age a person upwards or downwards, because the aging was more like the damage of an Innate Attack, or the change of location of a Warp Affliction, or the potential cardiac damage of a Heart Attack Affliction that you receive medical attention to survive. Again, IMO. But if you agree with the above assessments in the two thought experiments above, then in my mind you'd be logically inconsistent if you thought otherwise.
I don't see the inconsistency you do. In your first case, the Unaging was not specified to be an Affliction... the attacker is just negating a normal advantage. And in the second, you aren't even talking about Age Control, but an Afflicted disad. I can't address it specifically, as IAFMB, but I don't see the relevance of it, I'm afraid.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:03 PM   #70
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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No. That is what should happen. Whatever happened before an advantage was negated has nothing to do with it. When it is gone, then you live from that point on without it. Negation does not roll back the clock.
I don't see the inconsistency you do. In your first case, the Unaging was not specified to be an Affliction... the attacker is just negating a normal advantage. And in the second, you aren't even talking about Age Control, but an Afflicted disad. I can't address it specifically, as IAFMB, but I don't see the relevance of it, I'm afraid.
In my example the character had the normal advantage Unaging with Age Control. But what if instead of paying for it, it had been a beneficial Affliction, of the Extended Duration, Permanent, +150% variety (not the +300% variety of Permanent, because to my mind the rules make it clear that an advantage gained with that duration ceases to operate like an Affliction). Would your answer change? Would he go back to being 35 (he had spent that year of having this beneficial Affliction rejuvenating back to 25)? And what if he had been granted this Affliction centuries ago? Would you rule that negating the Affliction, through whatever means, would make him suddenly age centuries and certainly die?
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