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Old 03-30-2011, 12:16 PM   #51
JCurwen3
 
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
I don't think that's right. Afflictions are transient, so you attack, the affliction (if the target doesn't resist) produces its effect and the attack is done. The effect is what has the duration, not the affliction itself. I specified transformation-type specifically to point out that this effect belongs (MO) to that set. All of those types of afflictions (that I am aware of) have durations determined normally, unlike certain transient abilities, such as Warp, which apparently produce their effect w/o consideration of the normal duration rules. I have a problem with that, but it's not directly relevant to this build.
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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
There are reasons that the AF might not fit what you want, but note that using Age Control is a transformation just as AF is, and should be subject to Affliction Healing as well.
I'm not so sure I agree, but it could just be a difference of opinion. I see the aging (or rejuvenation) that would come from Unaging with Age Control as no more of a transformation than having your location changed on you (with Warp).

Let's try a thought experiment, tackling it from a different angle. Your character starts the game at 25 years old. Ten years later, at 35, for some in-game reason the GM allows him to purchase Unaging with Age Control (at the RAW +20% 10x normal rate level) with saved character points. The character spends the next year reverse-aging himself with his own ability back to 25 (it takes him a year to rejuvenate ten years). A month later, he meets Inevitable-Death-Man, who has an Affliction (Negate Advantage, Unaging (with Age Control added into the cost); Extended Duration, Permanent, +300%) and he uses it on your character. It's clear to me that your character would lose his Unaging, along with his ability to control his own age over time (and it's really Permanent, no back-doors or workarounds or affliction healing will work for this one). What seems quite wrong would be to say that he would revert back to his natural age of 35 (remember, if we weren't talking about a simple 10 year difference, but a 200 year difference, this one Negate Advantage Affliction would kill him, and it would be an awful death leaving behind a withered old corpse, with only loads of aging HT checks to give him any chance to vainly attempt and ultimately fail to resist going quietly into that dark night). To me, it seems clear he'd be physically 25 and then age normally again (and be ****** at the jerk move of this total douche-bag, but that's another story). Would you disagree with that assessment?

Another thought experiment: Our old pal Inevitable-Death-Man has another, even jerkier Affliction (Short Lifespan 4; Extended Duration, Permanent, +150%), with the condition to break that +150% version of Permanent that a victim has to get himself healed of the Affliction (duh) or pluck out the eyes of the bastard who gave him this horrible rapidly degenerative aging condition. But Inevitable-Death-Man has lots of powers to protect him from being found (otherwise he'd have been killed or permanently blinded already by a score of powerful and deeply ****** off enemies), and so it takes a long time to find him. Let's say ID-Man bumps into Bob, who, for simplicity's sake, is 18 and without powers, and he uses this Affliction on him. Looking at the Short Lifespan revised aging threshold chart on p. B154 this makes him the equivalent of 1 year old if he'd always had this drastically shortened lifespan. Two years later, he'll have to start making HT rolls to avoid attribute loss every 22 days. Let's say Bob finally finds ID-Man three years later. He already looks about 60 years old, and he's suffered some attribute losses from failed HT checks. He plucks out homeboy's eyes, and his curse of rapid aging is over. To me, it seems clear that he won't magically go back to being 18 (well, technically 18 + 3 years, so 21). He'll be biologically 60, will retain the attribute losses and aged appearance, and still be in line for some more attribute loss checks each year until he hits his next aging threshold at 70. He can get better (it would be a pretty jerk move if a GM didn't allow him to find some way to get younger again), but that's another quest for another time for our pal Bob. Again, would you disagree with that assessment?

If you would disagree with those assessments, then we're at an impasse and we'd have to agree to disagree (pending a ruling from Kromm), but I'd credit you for being logically self-consistent. If you agree with those assessments (as I clearly do), then we can't say aging counts as a "transformation". And so you wouldn't need to slap Extended Duration, Permanent on an Affliction that uses Unaging (Age Control) to age a person upwards or downwards, because the aging was more like the damage of an Innate Attack, or the change of location of a Warp Affliction, or the potential cardiac damage of a Heart Attack Affliction that you receive medical attention to survive. Again, IMO. But if you agree with the above assessments in the two thought experiments above, then in my mind you'd be logically inconsistent if you thought otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
Post up his reply when you find out. It might be of general interest.
Will do!

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
Regarding Warp as an Affliction: By my understanding (and as per my above explanation), you do not get to Warp a target around for a time equal to what the duration would be. Instead, you Warp them once (the attack), they go wherever (if they failed to resist) and the affliction ends.
Duh! I'm stupid, you're right. I just re-read the description and it says advantages with immediate effects are felt immediately, and specifically gives Warp as it's prime example. I'm sure they worked it that way in large part to simulate fictional abilities that work like "be gone!"

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
DJ pointed out that the age is real as far as the target is concerned.
DJ was right when it comes to AF, I think - the new AF body legitimately would be older and (if the duration was Permanent), they'd feel the real effects of aging threshold rules sooner if you made them older. But I'm not sure it's doable with AF with RAW. Maybe with a forced Morph. I didn't think you could specify on-the-fly racial templates for use with AF, especially a template that isn't even really a racial template so much as a meta-trait that includes how old it is and nothing else besides an appearance description of "looks like [my victim] when they'd be this age I just specified". I know there are Shapeshifting modifiers that provide more flexibility, but I was under the impression they were specifically limited to Morph.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:19 PM   #52
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
I didn't think you could specify on-the-fly racial templates for use with AF, especially a template that isn't even really a racial template so much as a meta-trait that includes how old it is and nothing else besides an appearance description of "looks like [my victim] when they'd be this age I just specified". .
If the GM is prepared to make an old person template then it's fine.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:28 PM   #53
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
If the GM is prepared to make an old person template then it's fine.
There'd really have to be as many templates as there are significant differences in biological age to provide enough flexibility to allow AF afflictions to let you age someone to arbitrarily chosen ages. You might want to rejuvenate someone to the exact age they ask - if they liked themselves at 25, it'll be 25, if they want to be older, fine, 18, fine. Or, for that matter, a young person wanting to be aged to be (temporarily) a distinguished 40 year old (no attribute penalties yet). A truly flexible age control power isn't just about making people really old to harm them or make them weaker. There is a vast range of possibilities.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:31 PM   #54
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
There'd really have to be as many templates as there are significant differences in biological age to provide enough flexibility to allow AF afflictions to let you age someone to arbitrarily chosen ages. You might want to rejuvenate someone to the exact age they ask - if they liked themselves at 25, it'll be 25, if they want to be older, fine, 18, fine. Or, for that matter, a young person wanting to be aged to be (temporarily) a distinguished 40 year old (no attribute penalties yet). A truly flexible age control power isn't just about making people really old to harm them or make them weaker. There is a vast range of possibilities.
Alternate Form is NOT a truly flexible age control power.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:32 PM   #55
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
If the GM is prepared to make an old person template then it's fine.
Do old people exist, and do they have different average stats than young people? Then a template implicitly exists, just as one exists for any animal or intelligent species that exists within the setting, whether it's ever been published by SJGames or written up by the GM before.

E.g., if a character with Morph sees an anteater and wants to change into one, but there's no existing template, the correct response from the GM is really not, "Sorry, there's no template, it's impossible to turn into one of those", it's to come up with one, or, if the player is trusted enough, let them do it and run it by the GM for approval.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:47 PM   #56
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
A truly flexible age control power isn't just about making people really old to harm them or make them weaker. There is a vast range of possibilities.
Using the Alternate Form mechanic as your base, the "Best" way I can think of to actually have this sort of flexibility is to use a Cosmic Modular Ability that can only be used to make Afflictions of Age Controlling Alternate Forms. You'll need some positive template points to handle infants being aged into adults, and the feeble elderly being youthened to the prime of their lives.

(Note that elderly is not synonymous with "feeble" - it's entirely possible for someone to have an incredible string of luck on their aging rolls and thus not be significantly changed from their statistical peak)
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:14 PM   #57
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Using the Alternate Form mechanic as your base, the "Best" way I can think of to actually have this sort of flexibility is to use a Cosmic Modular Ability that can only be used to make Afflictions of Age Controlling Alternate Forms.
Affliction (Morph, only into different age variants of the same person).
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:59 PM   #58
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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(Note that elderly is not synonymous with "feeble" - it's entirely possible for someone to have an incredible string of luck on their aging rolls and thus not be significantly changed from their statistical peak)
Thank you! This is a point that a lot of people seem to be missing. It is possible that a 70 year old with high HT or really good luck (not the advantage because it can't apply RAW, but good rolls) can be no more impaired than a 25 year old, according to the GURPS rules, which is something I think makes a lot of sense. They will look older though, and they will have multiple aging rolls per year, but that's where the game effects end. This is part of the reason I have a problem with calling Affliction (Alternate Form) a valid aging attack, because almost invariably I see the suggestion that attribute penalties be built into an "old person" template. But really, anything that deserves to be called an aging attack should be able to take a character from 25 to 70, providing the normal change in appearance (which won't necessarily be a positive or negative change, just different), and force them to make those 20 aging rolls they'd have to make between 50 and 70 (one per year). And the only way afflicting someone with an on-the-fly AF of what they would be aged and appearing as 70 would do that is a healthy dose of handwavium and GM fiat. Which, if you're okay with that, is fine, but is certainly not RAW, and doesn't sit well with me. My build based on Unaging with Age Control would handle that though.
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:06 PM   #59
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

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Thank you! This is a point that a lot of people seem to be missing. .
We don't miss it. We don't _care_ about it. What's the point in making people older if they aren't going to be impaired by it?
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:06 PM   #60
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Default Re: Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

For a really EVIL combo: Penalize the characters HT, THEN age them.
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