Knowledge skills for Mythology

[oneofmanynameless]

If someone had a Ph.D. in Mythological Studies, or Comparative Mythology, what would their main skills be? Literature (perhaps with a specialization)? Occultism? Connoisseur (literature) (also with a specialization)? Theology (Comparative)?

What about studies of folk lore? same skills? Expert skill ([region/time] folklore)?

I've observed that quite a few fantasy authors and gamers have a notably above average knowledge base regarding mythology, often interconnected with real world occult lore (including knowledge of strange cult religions and historical magic related stuff.) And I'm just very curious what skills actually cover that knowledge base. It seems interconnected, but how much of it is occultism vs. other skills, and what are those other skills?

Related question: if you were building a character inspired by an author like Neil Gaiman, besides writing and research, what occult and mythological knowledge skills would you give them? What about an academic character inspired by Joseph Campbell?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

Related question: if you were building a character inspired by an author like Neil Gaiman, besides writing and research, what occult and mythological knowledge skills would you give them? What about an academic character inspired by Joseph Campbell?

It could be a lot of different skills, depending on focus.
Theology (Comparative) seems the best overall fit but for a generalist. Theology (Specific Mythology) would be appropriate for most academics who tend to have a broad knowledge but also a focus on specific cultures.

Alternatively, History specializes by region or Era so would be narrower in scope but fits those I know. History (Egyptian Mythology) or History (Celtic Mythology) would be an optional specialization of History (regional).
Literature would be about prior books written on the subject. Useful for researching and citations.

For Campbell I would give him Theology (Comparative); History (Folklore); and Psychology with a specialty, not sure what to call it though. He also had Literature (BA), probably go with Literature (Medieval). Reading his wiki I would also give him Linguistics and a couple of languages.

Neil Gaiman I would say is a better writer, he covers different mediums and is more engaging to read. Campbell came across to me as a bit dry and sometimes pedantic.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

If someone had a Ph.D. in Mythological Studies, or Comparative Mythology, what would their main skills be? Literature (perhaps with a specialization)? Occultism? Connoisseur (literature) (also with a specialization)? Theology (Comparative)?

Literature would be the big one. That's the primary source for mythological knowledge. Really elite students will have the language skills to pursue the material in its' original form.

Connoisseur is a level lower when covering the same material. Effectively a Hobby skill rather than a Professional skill.

Occultism is about the supernatural (whether it's real or not and whether you believe in it or not). It might cover semi-modern cultists of the old gods and their practices.

Theology (with appropriate specializations) would cover the old religions as they were actually practiced by ancient peoples and would frequently have rather little to do with the stories that have been preserved as Literature.

The Campbell charactter might have Literature and Sociology or Anthropology as primary skills.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Literature would be about prior books written on the subject. Useful for researching and citations.

I don't think "Literature" in GURPS means knowledge of the scholarly literature on an academic field or subject. Knowledge of scholarly literature in general equals Research; knowledge of scholarly literature in a particular field equals the skill for that field. Literature in GURPS means belles lettres, or more broadly the high, folk, and popular arts expressed in language. Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress or Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky is "literature"; Tucker's Instead of a Book or Mises' Human Action or Friedman's The Machinery of Freedom is not—those are works of economics or political science or political philosophy.

The skill of Literature could be used to study many primary sources, such as the Homeric Hymns or the Rg Veda, or perhaps compendia that have come to be read as belles lettres, such as the Theogony or the Elder Edda. But I don't think it would include the study of Campbell or Dumézil or other mythographers.

I can see including the study of myths in Theology (Comparative or for any religion that has myths). But I don't know if religion=mythology or mythology=religion. It might be a simpler solution to define Expert Skill: Mythography and say that it includes any elements of anthropology, history, literature, philosophy, and theology that relate to myths.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

If someone had a Ph.D. in Mythological Studies, or Comparative Mythology, what would their main skills be? Literature (perhaps with a specialization)? Occultism? Connoisseur (literature) (also with a specialization)? Theology (Comparative)?

It depends on the focus.

If you're mostly focused on the literary value and academic aspects of mythology, it's Literature, possibly with specialization.

If you're a follower of a given religion, mythology isn't mythology, it's your Theology (something that Westerners often get disastrously wrong when dealing with Hinduism and indigenous African and Native American religions, btw).

If you're more interested in the general mystical practices, legendary monsters, folk magic, etc. associated with various mythologies, it's Occultism.

Connoisseur (Literature) as an Easy skill should be a stripped down version of the Literature skill. It just allows you to recognize good literature when you read it and recall the names and events associated with popular mythology.

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

What about studies of folk lore? same skills? Expert skill ([region/time] folklore)?

I'd allow "anything you can major in in college, which isn't an obvious GURPS skill" to count as an Expert Skill (e.g., American Studies, Celtic Studies, Film Studies, Folklore, International Relations, Latin American Studies, Music Studies, Popular Culture, Women's Studies). Some of these might actually count as Geography, History, Literature, Philosophy, Sociology, etc. depending on your focus, but "broad but shallow" academic knowledge of a topic should mostly be an Expert Skill.

For example, a B.A. in Mythology will probably give you a point each in Literature and Writing (for all those term papers you have to write) as well as points in Expert Skill (Mythology).

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

I've observed that quite a few fantasy authors and gamers have a notably above average knowledge base regarding mythology, often interconnected with real world occult lore (including knowledge of strange cult religions and historical magic related stuff.) And I'm just very curious what skills actually cover that knowledge base. It seems interconnected, but how much of it is occultism vs. other skills, and what are those other skills?

A typical fan will have Connoisseur (Imaginative Fiction) focused on a few popular media franchises. "Imaginative Fiction" covers all types of Comic Books, SF, Fantasy, and Horror literature, TV shows, and literature. Treat otaku-type knowledge of a given franchise or genre as a Hobby Skill or as higher levels of Connoisseur skill. Really geeky stuff is the Hyperspecialization perk (e.g., Star Trek weapon design). For example, Hobby Skill (Comics) allows you to recall exactly which issue the Silver Surfer first appeared in, and who drew him first, while Connoisseur (Imaginative Fiction) will tell you when the Silver Surfer movie in the MCU is going to drop.

Only the people who treat imaginative fiction as an academic discipline or who are really broadly read will have Literature (SF, Fantasy, or Horror).

The people who keep up to date goings on with a given franchise and people associated with it might have a form of Current Affairs (Popular Culture) or possibly the Hyperspecialization perk (e.g., Jason Momoa as Aquaman trivia).

Cosplayers will have Artist (Costume Design), Make-Up and Sewing if they DIY.

Writers will obviously have Writing skill, at high levels and with at least one level of Talent if they hope to make a living it.

The really good writers seem to have high IQ even by geek standards, broad training in the liberal arts (possibly with an advanced degree), and a voracious appetite for books on obscure topics. Decent Artist (Drawing) skill also seems to be common. Some will have Research skill, used for world design. They'll either be comfortable in public and capable of holding an audience, so they'll have Public Speaking as well. Many will have experience within the book or movie/TV industry as editors or scriptwriters, within the ad industry as copywriters, or as journalists. Others have at least some training as teachers. A level of Charisma or Attractive or better Appearance doesn't hurt, nor does the Voice advantage.

Popular SF/Fantasy/Horror Writer
e.g., Neil Gaiman, Steven King, J.R.R. Martin, J.K. Rowling, or Charles Stross.
IQ: 12+
Advantage: Reputation (Famous SF/Fantasy/Horror writer, Large Group, All the Time, +1 or better), Talent 1+ (Literary or similar); Wealth (Comfortable to Multimillionaire) and one of Attractive Appearance, Charisma, or Voice.
Optional Perk: Dabbler (Sciences - Astronomy, Biology, Chemistry, Physics).
Primary Skill: Writing.
Secondary Skills: Connoisseur (Imaginative Fiction); Public Speaking.
Background Skills: Artist (Drawing); Computer Operations; one or more of Anthropology; Expert Skill (Folklore or Mythology); Games (Board, Computer, or Roleplaying); History; Literature; Merchant; Occultism; Professional Skill (Editor, Journalist, Scriptwriter, etc.); Propaganda; Research; Teaching; or Theology.

Humanities Professor turned Popular Writer
Someone like Steven Ambrose, Joseph Campbell, J.R.R. Tolkien, or C.S. Lewis.
IQ: 12+
Advantage: Reputation (Academic, Small Group, 9-, +1 or better), Talent 1+ (Literary or similar); Wealth (Comfortable to Filthy Rich) and one or more of Attractive Appearance, Charisma, or Voice.
Optional Advantage: Tenure.
Disadvantage: Reputation (Sell-Out or "Not a Real Academic", Small Group, 9-, -1 or worse).
Primary Skills: Writing and one of Anthropology, Expert Skill (Folklore or Mythology), History, Linguistics, Literature, or Theology.
Secondary Skill: Public Speaking; Research; Savoir-Faire (Academic).
Background Skills: Computer Operations; Connoisseur (SF/Fantasy); Merchant; Occultism; Propaganda; Teaching; or any skill not chosen as Primary.
Languages: At least two non-native languages at Accented or better written fluency (Typically Latin, Classic Greek, French, or German).

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't think "Literature" in GURPS means knowledge of the scholarly literature on an academic field or subject. Knowledge of scholarly literature in general equals Research; knowledge of scholarly literature in a particular field equals the skill for that field. Literature in GURPS means belles lettres, or more broadly the high, folk, and popular arts expressed in language. Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress or Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky is "literature"; Tucker's Instead of a Book or Mises' Human Action or Friedman's The Machinery of Freedom is not—those are works of economics or political science or political philosophy.

The skill of Literature could be used to study many primary sources, such as the Homeric Hymns or the Rg Veda, or perhaps compendia that have come to be read as belles lettres, such as the Theogony or the Elder Edda. But I don't think it would include the study of Campbell or Dumézil or other mythographers.

I can see including the study of myths in Theology (Comparative or for any religion that has myths). But I don't know if religion=mythology or mythology=religion. It might be a simpler solution to define Expert Skill: Mythography and say that it includes any elements of anthropology, history, literature, philosophy, and theology that relate to myths.

I'll agree that the major works in a field should be known by someone with the right skills and Literature is not needed. But Campbell got a BA in English Literature then a Masters in Miedval literature. To me he should qualify for the GURPS Literature skill with that background.
Also I think Literature is a valid skill, though not the best one for knowing about Mythology.

As for Religion=Mythology I think that is more a matter of faith and social norms than a skill difference. A Biblical Scholar would have the appropriate Theology skill, regardless of their actual faith (if any).

As for Expert Skill I am fine with that too, I offered a list of options to choose from rather than trying to force a specific build.

I do wish optional specializations had included a technique build to better handle some things, especially the way the Masters and Doctorate programs tend to work. Something like Specialty (A) default skill-2; up to skill+5.

[Donny Brook]

The easy way would be Expert Skill (Greek (or whatever) Mythology), which would allow rolls against appropriate History, Literature, Theology, Archaeology etc .

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Connoisseur (Literature) as an Easy skill should be a stripped down version of the Literature skill. It just allows you to recognize good literature when you read it and recall the names and events associated with popular mythology.

I don't think that's quite accurate.

C.S. Lewis, who was a professor of literature at Oxford, wrote that he thought the approach of literature classes in secondary schools was largely perverse; they asked the kids to "appreciate" the literary works, rather than to answer questions about their content that showed that they had actually read them. In Lewis's view, you risked inculcating faked "appreciation" of works that meant nothing to young readers, or perhaps actually repelled them; he didn't think you could TEACH appreciation.

Literature seems to be the skill of literary history, on one hand, and of determining the meanings of texts, on the other. Connoisseur (Literature) seems to be a cultivated taste for the qualities of literary works, just as Connoisseur (Wine) is a cultivated taste for wines. I don't think either is a subset of the other.

A typical fan will have Connoisseur (Imaginative Fiction) focused on a few popular media franchises. "Imaginative Fiction" covers all types of Comic Books, SF, Fantasy, and Horror literature, TV shows, and literature. Treat otaku-type knowledge of a given franchise or genre as a Hobby Skill or as higher levels of Connoisseur skill. Really geeky stuff is the Hyperspecialization perk (e.g., Star Trek weapon design). For example, Hobby Skill (Comics) allows you to recall exactly which issue the Silver Surfer first appeared in, and who drew him first, while Connoisseur (Imaginative Fiction) will tell you when the Silver Surfer movie in the MCU is going to drop.

Technically, TV shows are drama rather than fiction. And in well made TV shows, like well made movies, the linguistic content does not remotely convey the full meaning; the visual imagery and syntax are vital---which is which departments of Art/Visual Art/Art History so often have courses in film. (I took such a course back in the eighties from a really brilliant instructor in the art department.)

I don't think knowing the factual stuff is what Connoisseur is for. I think the knowledge of the forthcoming movie falls under Current Events (Popular Culture).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

The easy way would be Expert Skill (Greek (or whatever) Mythology), which would allow rolls against appropriate History, Literature, Theology, Archaeology etc .

Confining it to mythology seems a bit narrow. We have, for example, Egyptology as an Expert Skill; it covers a lot more than just Egyptian myths. I copy edit a journal of classical studies, and it covers archaeology, art, history, literature, philosophy, and various more specialized studies.

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Literature seems to be the skill of literary history, on one hand, and of determining the meanings of texts, on the other. Connoisseur (Literature) seems to be a cultivated taste for the qualities of literary works, just as Connoisseur (Wine) is a cultivated taste for wines. I don't think either is a subset of the other.

So, for example, would you say that:

Literature is the skill for knowing about the classics, including their specific content and well established meanings. For knowing that One Hundred Years of Solitude won a nobel prize in literature, for knowing the content of the book, and for knowing about it's themes of the inevitability of repeating history, and the social commentary of the destructive narcissism of the Columbian elite, and so on. And to be able to potentially recognize references to that literary work, as well what they might mean based on the well established analysis and breakdown of that work. At higher skill levels it covers more literature, including more niche works besides classics, and also provide knowledge not just of the main analyses of the works but also of alternate competing commentaries.

Whereas Connoisseur (Literature) is about breaking down the qualities and traits of a literary work, and could be used to analyze a new literary work, for example one that blends multiple relatively new genre's in inventive ways, including identify why different genre's appeal to different people and how one is supposed to read a particular genre in order to enjoy it, e.g. how horror is usually read for a catharsis from the dark fears that people actually live with regularly, while action is often about power fantasies, and if you watch a horror with the attitude of watching an action movie you'll feel frustrated, or vice versa you'll feel powerless. So Connoisseur (literature) would tell you how to enjoy a work of literature, based on it's various qualities and traits (such as genres and tropes.)