Will, what is it good for, huh?

[b-dog]

I like to decouple Magery and Theurgy from IQ. I start with a base of 10 and the wizard or cleric can buy it up to high levels. The wizard and cleric buy higher than average IQs to learn spells and study prayer rituals but they are no where near as smart as Scholars.Just because a wizard or cleric can cast spells it does not mean they can learn Russian at 18 with only one point invested. In fact a wizard or cleric can be stupid or weak Willed in my game world. A clerics strong Will against demons or undead is due to his faith which is represented by his Theurgy level. Otherwise a cleric might have weak will for other things.

[Black Leviathan]

Our Dungeon Fantasy GM uses a lot of Fear Checks and for those of us with a Will 10 from template it's a hard hard ride. My Barbarian ran into a spider the size of a dog and was so unnerved he threw up for the entire combat, granted he was a Halfling so it was a spider 1 size level bigger than he was.

There's a fair number of cool skills that are Will-Based as well.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

Our Dungeon Fantasy GM uses a lot of Fear Checks and for those of us with a Will 10 from template it's a hard hard ride.

Probably the part that plays into the primary Cleric function is resisting party crippling debuffs so he can use his abilities to neutralize them on everyone else. It doesn't help to have spells that can recover the rest of the party from sleep or paralysis or terror if you yourself are debilitated by the same effect and can't cast them.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Probably the part that plays into the primary Cleric function is resisting party crippling debuffs so he can use his abilities to neutralize them on everyone else. It doesn't help to have spells that can recover the rest of the party from sleep or paralysis or terror if you yourself are debilitated by the same effect and can't cast them.

This is why it's critically important that the Cleric isn't the one carrying all the healing potions and suchlike. Someone else needs to have some to hand in case of Cleric Down emergency, whether to revive the cleric, or so after the Cleric disappears into the Castigus' acidic maw, the party still has some sort of healing to limp back to town on.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Probably the part that plays into the primary Cleric function is resisting party crippling debuffs so he can use his abilities to neutralize them on everyone else. It doesn't help to have spells that can recover the rest of the party from sleep or paralysis or terror if you yourself are debilitated by the same effect and can't cast them.

Except you don't need a Will higher than 16 for that. A Will higher than 13 is useless on Fright Checks (Rule of 14), and going higher than 16 only means if you fail, your opponent has probably succeeded with a much higher MoS.

And Resist Evil is waaaaaay cheaper and slightly better if you're worried about resisting supernatural effects.

So hit 16 in Will, then buy up Resist Evil if you're worried your foes can roll against a skill higher than 16 (Rule of 16).


As for skills there are 3 that a Cleric has access to, Exorcism, Intimidation, and Meditation... and Meditation is useless for the Cleric. It's 1 point thrown down the 'background skills hole'.

So, again, once you get to Will 16 there isn't much reason to go beyond it, unless your GM really loves to throw insane skill penalties at you when you use Exorcism and you just love scaring mundane foes.

[tbone]

I guess the OP is correct that there aren't a lot of ways in which Will is of special importance to just clerics (including holy warriors, for this discussion). Which is fine, I say. Clerics' higher cap on Will seems to me just a fun nod to the original OSR designation of Wisdom (i.e., Will) as the "primary attribute" for clerics; beyond that, there doesn't need to be some key significance.

Still, as the OP notes, there is the importance of Will to Exorcism and Turning, and those are key cleric schticks. Note Turning in particular: in OSR games, clerics' Turn Undead ability gets stronger as the clerics go up levels. In DFRPG, though, there's no way to "level up" Turning, other than raising Will. High Will is the key to effective Turning.

Beyond that, a GM could houserule some extra clerical benefits from Will. Perhaps the roll for emergency divine aid could use Will-based Religious Ritual. Or perhaps a few choice "spiritual warfare" spells could be based on Will instead of IQ for clerics.

Finally, I'll note that when demons and other nasty spirits look over a party of intruders, they'll probably be smart enough to recognize the cleric as their biggest potential foe. Smart demons, undead, etc. will want to hit the cleric fastest and hardest – often with attacks on the mind/soul. Resisting this will again be a job for Will.

[Yssa]

Ok, so I've been looking for reasons to go above sixteen, and here's what I've come up with:

First off, of course, are modifiers. As evileeyore noted fright checks max at out 13, but that is after modifiers. Violet Mold, for example (Monsters, 43) requires a fright check at -10, so to reach your maximum fright check odds at 13, you'd need to start with will 23. According to Exploits (10) monsters such as elder things can impose a "penalty of almost any size," so there's no "safe" number. That said, buying fearlessness 15 would still be cheaper than getting your Will up to 25.

So, on to things that fearlessness won't help you with: If you are casting spells in battle, you are likely to get distracted. To maintain concentration through an active defense, injury, etc., you need to roll at Will -3 (Spells, 8-9), so to maximize your chances, getting Will 19 would be worthwhile.

Finally, resisting magical attacks is key:

Originally Posted by malloyd

Probably the part that plays into the primary Cleric function is resisting party crippling debuffs so he can use his abilities to neutralize them on everyone else. It doesn't help to have spells that can recover the rest of the party from sleep or paralysis or terror if you yourself are debilitated by the same effect and can't cast them.

Resisting spells (Spells, 14) runs as a quick contest between the caster's skill and the targets HT, Will, or other trait, and in quick contests, Margin of success is the name of the game. Therefore, maximizing will is valuable: any amount you will is higher than a hostile spell-caster's skill will up your odds of resistance. (By my count, there are 24 spells in DFRPG resisted by will and likely to be cast on a PC.)

Quick contests based on Will also come into play with Exorcism and Turning, so those also don't max out success potential at 16.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Yssa

Therefore, maximizing will is valuable: any amount you will is higher than a hostile spell-caster's skill will up your odds of resistance. (By my count, there are 24 spells in DFRPG resisted by will and likely to be cast on a PC.)

Only if your GM doesn't give the baddies very high skills. If he does, as I mentioned, failure penalizes you more than if your Will were only 16.

Quick contests based on Will also come into play with Exorcism and Turning, so those also don't max out success potential at 16.

Those are both Resisted, so yes, yes you do max at 16, unless your foe's resistance is more potent than that.

Yeah, in that niche case, taking your skill (or base Will as that is cheaper) up is a boon.


And thanks, I forgot there were modifiers on Fright Checks. I don't throw them at my Players very often...

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Except you don't need a Will higher than 16 for that. A Will higher than 13 is useless on Fright Checks (Rule of 14), and going higher than 16 only means if you fail, your opponent has probably succeeded with a much higher MoS.

Having Will higher than 16 helps if it's higher than the attacker. Attack 16 vs will 16, 50-50. Attack 16 vs Will 18, odds are better to resist said attack. So having Will-25 is great when the evil wizard starts combat with Mass Sleep-20.

And Resist Evil is waaaaaay cheaper and slightly better if you're worried about resisting supernatural effects.

So hit 16 in Will, then buy up Resist Evil if you're worried your foes can roll against a skill higher than 16 (Rule of 16).

What is Resist Evil and where is it found? Do you mean Magic Resistance?

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Only if your GM doesn't give the baddies very high skills. If he does, as I mentioned, failure penalizes you more than if your Will were only 16.

Please explain this.

Attack-16 vs Will-16: coin toss
Attack-18 vs Will-16: also coin toss due to rule of 16
Attack-20 vs Will-16: same
Attack-20 vs Will-18, same, and in all 4 cases, if you fail, margin of failure will be the same since both of you are rolling against the same number. Tell me how you are worse off in the 4th example vs the 3rd.

Attack-20 vs Will-22: Advantage, victim