grappling & posture and grappling & letting go

[zedlopez]

1. I had thought that when the Basic Set said you could try to pin someone if you were grappling their torso and they were "on the ground" it meant they could be any of lying, sitting, or crawling. But now I see that DFRPG says specifically that they must be lying and I'm wondering if I had the Basic Set's intention wrong all along. Can you attempt to pin someone who's sitting or crawling?

2. B370 says that when you're grappling someone "Letting go is a free action on your turn", emphasis in original. Martial Arts p. 122 says "The grappler has no penalties. However, he can't parry with a limb without releasing its hold on his victim. To retreat or use Acrobatic Dodge, he must let go with all of his limbs." So... is it meant to be possible for a grappler to release their hold to attempt an active defense that would be impossible otherwise? The point of the former seemed to be to say no.

3. When the takedown rules say the grappled opponent must be standing, is that meant to be read as 'on their feet' and thus includes crouching? Or does dropping into a crouch really make you takedown-proof?

[Plane]

I always figured crouching was still a form of standing. In basic set there's always "sweeping kick" to take down non-standing opponents. "Force Posture Change" in Technical Grappling fixes it.

[evileeyore]

I've never paid attention to any of that nonsense when running games. You can pin someone who is standing against a vertical surface, or against another surface if sitting/kneeling, etc; letting someone go can always be done at any point during a turn*; you can perform a takedown to someone kneeling or sitting, etc.



* A Turn lasts until you end it to take another one, so... it's always someone's turn even if it's only the defense portion of the their Turn.

[zedlopez]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

letting someone go can always be done at any point during a turn*

* A Turn lasts until you end it to take another one, so... it's always someone's turn even if it's only the defense portion of the their Turn.

3.4.1.3 In combat, when does your turn end?

Originally Posted by The Official GURPS FAQ

Your turn ends after you've chosen, executed, and ended a maneuver – Attack, Concentrate, etc. For the sole purpose of active defenses, your turn has consequences that extend past that period, until you choose your next maneuver. Thus, one could say your turn doesn't end until your next one begins. But everything that refers to turns in the Basic Set – with the sole exception of the active defense rules – hews to the more restricted usage above.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by zedlopez

3.4.1.3 In combat, when does your turn end?

There's a much longer discussion about it somewhere on the forums (but I'm not finding it), but essentially it boils down to "Look at the third sentence in the quote you used above, extrapolate as needed".

[zedlopez]

I posed these to Dr. Kromm by Private Message; he replied thus:

Originally Posted by Kromm

The canonical postures are standing, sitting, kneeling, crawling, lying prone, and lying face up (p. B364). To pin someone, they have to be "on the ground," which is used throughout the rules to mean "lying face up or face down." Crawling and sitting are not lying down, and thus don't count as "on the ground" and don't permit pin attempts.

Originally Posted by Kromm

GURPS Martial Arts is a book of optional rules; if you use them, they overrule the Basic Set in cases of conflict. The idea is that, as in the real world, you can force an enemy to let go of you by posing a sufficiently serious threat that it's worth letting go to defend more effectively.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Crouching isn't a true posture; it's just a special condition you can apply when in the standing posture. Someone in a crouch still counts as standing for most purposes, and can certainly be subjected to a takedown attempt.

Thanks, Dr. Kromm.

[evileeyore]

So now sitting and crawling are the ultimate anti-takedown, anti-pin positions?


I call shenanigans.

[zedlopez]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

So now sitting and crawling are the ultimate anti-takedown, anti-pin positions?


I call shenanigans.

well, they aren't any better or worse than Kneeling. But, yeah, rules-as-written seem to say that you can't be taken down from sitting, crawling, or kneeling. And that if you weren't in one of those postures and you are taken down, you could take a Change Posture maneuver to switch to one of those three and you could no longer be pinned. Which would make it really hard to take someone down and pin them if you don't take an All-out Attack: Double (or otherwise have more than one attack) and win both contests on the same turn.

Icelander had an interesting suggestion that one could treat the grappler as encumbrance and apply the Change Posture in Armor rule from B395 to require the Change Posture to take multiple turns to address this within existing rules.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by zedlopez

well, they aren't any better or worse than...

Which is why I ignore nonsense rules. I know for a fact that takedowns can be performed on crawling individuals, the 'down' par terre position in Greco-Roman wrestling is famous for this!

[Tomsdad]

As Plane mention earlier Force Posture change in TG deal with this (and brings in stability of different postures for resisting it).

but otherwise yeah I'd ignore the standing only restriction (but take into account what posture you'd have to be in to "takedown" a crawling etc target)