Grappling Now Affects Active Defenses

[Tom H.]

I was hoping somebody could clarify what appears to be new rules with Dungeon Fantasy.

Being grappled always had this effect:

• -4 to DX

It now appears to add the following effects:

• -2 to blocks and parries
• -1 to dodges

(Exploits, pg 41; Monsters, pg 32.)

I don't recall GURPS providing for the added effects. Was it included in a supplement?

I like the new rule, but what is the logic behind it?

For example, it seems to be a result of DX being lowered.

However, the rules for Temporary Attribute Penalties (Exploits, pg. 59) seem to contradict this:

• "DX penalties lower combat skills, but not Parry or Block based on them."
• "DX and HT penalties don't lower Basic Speed (and thus Move or Dodge.)"

Is there now a new exception for grappling?

[Anthony]

-4 DX gives -4 to combat skills (and thus -2 to defenses off of those skills) and -1 to speed (and thus -1 to dodge).

[demonsbane]

I'm prone to think it seems to be a sort of contradiction.

Here I have to draw upon GURPS books as well, and to me this makes it more clear:

Originally Posted by Basic Set, Temporary Attribute Penalties, p. 421

Exception: Defensive reactions that don’t require a maneuver to perform – active defenses, resistance rolls, Fright Checks, etc. – never suffer penalties for attribute reductions. For instance, -2 to DX would not affect Block, Dodge, or Parry.

Even more, the same book mentions an exception of this exception, with a grappled character suffering a penalty to defend:

Originally Posted by Basic Set, Special Combat Situations, p. 404

Knee Strike Technique (. . .) If you have grappled your target, he defends at -2

Expanding the Knee Strike technique, Martial Arts repeats this same penalty to defend at page 76.

However the penalties to blocks, parries and dodge you're mentioning aren't new rules coming with the Dungeon Fantasy RPG; they officially appear with Martial Arts:

Originally Posted by Martial Arts, Techniques, p. 86

Piledriver (. . .) Your victim may defend at the usual penalties for being grappled.

If after reading this, one wonders what are such "usual penalties", luckily the same book provides the answer, seemingly contradicting or overwriting what Temporary Attribute Penalties say:

Originally Posted by Martial Arts, Defense While Grappling, p. 121

A grappled fighter has -4 to DX (p. B370). This affects combat skills, giving -2 to Block and Parry – and a grappled limb can’t block or parry. Dodge is at -1, equivalent to the effect of -4 DX on Basic Speed (which isn’t reduced)

While I dislike contradictions I prefer these penalties to defenses, they make things more dynamic and I like to see them explicitly mentioned.

[Tom H.]

Hey, thanks Demonsbane.

I do not own Martial Arts, but I suspected that that would be the place if a change had occurred prior to Dungeon Fantasy.

I too like the grappling penalties to active defenses.

It must have been an oversight not to include them in the Temporary Attribute Penalties rules.

There is an amazing amount of content in Dungeon Fantasy for a single author to have compiled. And there are many places where detail is not compromised. I think we all have a sense that Kromm is superhuman. Still, it would be nice to have more collaborators to really polish off some things. Then again, our culture doesn't appear to allow much leeway out of the regular squeeze.

[tanksoldier]

For instance, -2 to DX would not affect Block, Dodge, or Parry.

I don't think the parry, dodge or block reductions are due to the attribute reduction per se. There's an effect of being grappled in and of itself.

It seems reasonable to me that you wouldn't parry as effectively with some dude hanging on your back trying to get you into a choke hold.

[Refplace]

GURPS has always held that specific cases can override general rules so I dont see it as a contradiction here.

[Kromm]

Most rules are "This rule holds, except when it doesn't." The general rule here is Temporary Attribute Penalties (Exploits, p. 59); the specific rule here is Grappling (Exploits, pp. 40-41). In this particular case, the general rule is mostly talking about curses, spells, poisons, etc. that actually lower your DX score at the source (i.e., in your body), not about "-4 to your DX-based combat rolls," which is so close to totally identical to "-4 to DX" in combat that it isn't worth the extra words.

[Tom H.]

Thank you Kromm; good to know.

[demonsbane]

I also appreciate the clarification; it makes much more sense this way and now I can throw my tentative guess above into the paper bin.