Inventing rules in [After the End 2] versus [Basic Set]

[phayman53]

Guys,

Just wondering, are the inventing rules in After the End 2 different than the rules in Campaigns? I have never played a Gadgeteer so I don't really have a great handle on the rules, but I am GMing a game with a Gadgeteer now and we are finding the inventing rules in Campaigns require too much money for our campaign. Basically, we are running a TL2 Monster Hunters game, so the amount of wealth required for inventions is prohibitively high (and he did not want to play a Quick Gadgeteer). After the End does not seem to have the these facilities costs, so I was wondering if sub-standard facilities are rolled into the skill modifiers listed in After the End's invention tables? Or is AtE just a modified system?

Thanks.

[KarlKost]

Well, If he didnt wanted the Quick Gadgeteer version, than he gets what he paid for...

[Refplace]

See After the End Wastelanders Inventing and modification rules start on page 39.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Refplace

See After the End Wastelanders Inventing and modification rules start on page 39.

The most relevant bits are the Tech-Level Modifier table (page 39), the Modifiers under Inventing (page 40), and the Workspace rules (pages 40-41). For actually inventing something - rather than making something you know exists - you suffer a -2 relative to those modifiers. ATE also assumes you are using an improvised workspace - something more dedicated can give a bonus. It simplifies things (for example, having you just roll once for both Concept and how well you actually build the thing) and probably errs on the side of cinematic, but I feel the rules are a lot more usable.

For example, if the character in question has Gadgeteer but not Quick Gadgeteer, and is trying to make a TL 4 pocket watch (LT44), the item's base cost is $400 ($100, doubled twice for 2 TL difference). $400 means a -5 to invent (it would be -11 for a mundane inventor). TL 4 is good for a +4 to the roll, but the fact such has never been made before is a -2. The character probably doesn't have access to a dedicated clock workshop, so he's either using an improvised workshop or a professional-but-wrong one, for +0 either way. He needs $400 of raw materials and 2d hours, and is at a net -3 to his invention roll, assuming he has Engineer (Clockwork) - he's likely working off of a different specialty, however, for another -4 (total -7). Note this ignores the effect of TL on skill - he's probably at another -4* (total -11) for using a TL 2 skill for a TL 4 invention.

*EDIT: I had thought that /TL skills were at -1 per TL lower than your own, or -2 per TL higher than your own. Turns out the latter is actually -5 per TL higher than your own, for -10 (total -17) here. Ouch.

[starslayer]

Yea, doing any type of inventing outside of your own TL without gadgeteer 2 is punishingly hard, but not insurmountable (though I agree with the statement: If your player wanted to create things without it costing a fortune and taking forever, they should have taken Gadgeteer 2, that's what its for!):

Scrounging still helps.
Takes extra time still exists
visualization still helps
versatile still helps
artificer talent still helps
having a book still helps
Having a working version to copy still helps.

[phayman53]

Thanks for the replies. I guess the thing that gets me most about the inventing rules in Campaigns is that there are no listed modifiers (that I know of) for skill penalties resulting from inadequate facilities. The facilities fees are astronomical, which is probably realistic (at higher tech levels), but it seems like inventing should still be possible (at least for a gadgeteer) with inadequate facilities. That is why I was drawn to the rules in AtE2, but I was not sure if those rules are completely different or just a clarification/expansion of the Campaigns rules.

Also, as I hinted at above, it seems to me that the facilities fees for inventing are a bit high for low tech levels. A lot of LT inventions could be invented in a forge or other relatively standard workshop, the idea is the problem, not the facilities.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by phayman53

Also, as I hinted at above, it seems to me that the facilities fees for inventing are a bit high for low tech levels. A lot of LT inventions could be invented in a forge or other relatively standard workshop, the idea is the problem, not the facilities.

The cost is explained in the box under Funding and is deemed "realistic" at low tech levels. Inventions were a lot less common and generally took longer. Also your Blacksmith could reduce his costs by 1/10 if the GM deemed his shop adequete and related. And I consider that kind of thing a GM guideline more than a rule so could see adjusting it by more or less depending.
But the real secret to saving money is having Gadgeteer.

[starslayer]

The rules for using a skill with inadequate equipment are the same for gadgeteering as for anything else to my knowledge.

[PK]

Originally Posted by phayman53

Just wondering, are the inventing rules in After the End 2 different than the rules in Campaigns?

The inventing rules in ATE2 are significantly different from those in the Basic Set, but part of that is how they're tightly married to ATE's unique take on TL and value of equipment.

Basically, we are running a TL2 Monster Hunters game, so the amount of wealth required for inventions is prohibitively high (and he did not want to play a Quick Gadgeteer).

Well, the one big change I made to the (non-Quick) Gadgeteer advantage in ATE2 was to treat it as a halfway point between "normal inventor" and Quick Gadgeteer, rather than as its own thing. If you were to take that approach, you could use the times given in ATE2 for Gadgeteers; those actually do carry over great as-is.

After the End does not seem to have the these facilities costs, so I was wondering if sub-standard facilities are rolled into the skill modifiers listed in After the End's invention tables?

Yep! The rules assume that you're working out of a terrible workplace. As such, normal inventors suffer the full -5 for improvised equipment, Gadgeteers suffer a lesser version (-2), and Quick Gadgeteers take no penalty at all. That seemed like a fair way to handle it. That's why the bonuses on the Workspace Table (ATE2, p. 41) are so much more generous for normies than for techies.

I think what you might want are actually the rules and guidelines from GURPS Mars Attacks (pp. 53-54), which supports normal folks inventing stuff (using the core invention rules) out of their homes. The most relevant bit is that using the right type of facility, but one that doesn't cost enough, imposes -2; working out of a well-stocked garage lab or similar personal setup is -5; and working in a tool shed, etc., is -10.

[phayman53]

One of the things I love about GURPS other than the system itself: game developers/authors actually answer rules questions! Thanks PK for your response.

Originally Posted by PK

The inventing rules in ATE2 are significantly different from those in the Basic Set, but part of that is how they're tightly married to ATE's unique take on TL and value of equipment.

Are you primarily referring to the "Tech-Level Modifier" chart on AtE2 pg. 39? Would it work if I simply re-zeroed that chart to TL2 (which is the campaign TL)? Or are the values and associated times in the Engineering Table on the same page also altered from Basic?

Originally Posted by PK

Well, the one big change I made to the (non-Quick) Gadgeteer advantage in ATE2 was to treat it as a halfway point between "normal inventor" and Quick Gadgeteer, rather than as its own thing. If you were to take that approach, you could use the times given in ATE2 for Gadgeteers; those actually do carry over great as-is.

Good to know, not sure I would have noticed that myself...

Originally Posted by PK

Yep! The rules assume that you're working out of a terrible workplace. As such, normal inventors suffer the full -5 for improvised equipment, Gadgeteers suffer a lesser version (-2), and Quick Gadgeteers take no penalty at all. That seemed like a fair way to handle it. That's why the bonuses on the Workspace Table (ATE2, p. 41) are so much more generous for normies than for techies.

I think what you might want are actually the rules and guidelines from GURPS Mars Attacks (pp. 53-54), which supports normal folks inventing stuff (using the core invention rules) out of their homes. The most relevant bit is that using the right type of facility, but one that doesn't cost enough, imposes -2; working out of a well-stocked garage lab or similar personal setup is -5; and working in a tool shed, etc., is -10.

Hmm, good to know. I don't have Mars Attacks and can't get it right now. I may just go off of the numbers you give here, though I think I may try to adapt the AtE rules if it seems workable.