Low Tech Draw Power

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by lugaid

There is the ability to arbitrarily specify the parameters of any given spell (which was your answer, as you note).

Well, actually, the parameters I specified weren't arbitrary. The standard Draw Power spell yields 1 FP/second from a 360-kW power source. My variant Draw Power spell yields 1 FP/minute from a 6-kW power source. 360 kW x 1 s = 360 kJ; 6 W x 60 s = 360 kJ. So the equivalence between energy and FP is exactly the same. I was making a point of saving the appearances.

My only point in that discussion was that Draw Power, or even a low-tech scaled down Draw Power, won't do what the OP is asking for. Not even with a golem hamster running in a hamster wheel.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by whswhs

My only point in that discussion was that Draw Power, or even a low-tech scaled down Draw Power, won't do what the OP is asking for. Not even with a golem hamster running in a hamster wheel.

(nods) Quite.

Lugaid, you still seem to be pushing the notion that "magic can fix anything" and that making a blanket statement that it can't rubs you the wrong way. I won't dispute that it does rub you the wrong way, but the fact remains that while your sentiment might be true as far as other game systems go, it is NOT true for GURPS Magic RAW. Period. However much you or any other speculative poster might wish it otherwise.

Don't refute Bill or myself with detail-free hypotheticals, or what-about-Clay-Golems. Come up with something specific. What precise spells, items, or combination thereof set forth in RAW will produce the effects you claim are feasible?

[lugaid]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Well, actually, the parameters I specified weren't arbitrary. The standard Draw Power spell yields 1 FP/second from a 360-kW power source. My variant Draw Power spell yields 1 FP/minute from a 6-kW power source. 360 kW x 1 s = 360 kJ; 6 W x 60 s = 360 kJ. So the equivalence between energy and FP is exactly the same. I was making a point of saving the appearances.

FP don't exist outside of the game. How much energy or power equals how many FP is arbitrary. You may have been limiting yourself to precedent, but my point here is that you don't have to.

My only point in that discussion was that Draw Power, or even a low-tech scaled down Draw Power, won't do what the OP is asking for. Not even with a golem hamster running in a hamster wheel.

That's fine. It might be better to explain what would need to be done to make it work instead of just shutting it down, though. Then, the people involved can decide if they are willing to make those parameters exist in their setting.

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Lugaid, you still seem to be pushing the notion that "magic can fix anything" and that making a blanket statement that it can't rubs you the wrong way. I won't dispute that it does rub you the wrong way, but the fact remains that while your sentiment might be true as far as other game systems go, it is NOT true for GURPS Magic RAW. Period. However much you or any other speculative poster might wish it otherwise.

No, I'm pushing the notion that someone can do worldbuilding, and it isn't really great, either as an advertisement for the game for someone coming in and maybe having this discussion as their first exposure to it or as a helpful answer, to completely and definitively shut down discussion because you have a preference for RAW GURPS Magic. Period, as you say.

Which is to say, GURPS Magic makes a good starting point, maybe even a good ending point for some settings, but let's also maybe leave some room for adjusting it, per Thaumatology's suggestions and implications, to better fit what we come up with in our imaginations. After all, the game as previously written (hastily, in some cases) shouldn't be taking primacy over that. Or at least I think so, though your preferences may vary.

[RGTraynor]

Well, no kidding someone can houserule however they want. That was said a good while ago, uptopic, and doesn't require a discussion. Someone who really wants Draw Power to work low tech has a couple avenues to work with, between just changing the parameters of the spell or allowing it to work on large-scale natural forces like rivers, waterfalls or volcanoes.

"Assign whatever numbers will produce the result you prefer" was said well uptopic too. That's the answer to your question. What leads you to believe that answer is invalid because it doesn't require several dozen posts to say?

Originally Posted by lugaid

No, I'm pushing the notion that someone can do worldbuilding, and it isn't really great, either as an advertisement for the game for someone coming in and maybe having this discussion as their first exposure to it or as a helpful answer, to completely and definitively shut down discussion because you have a preference for RAW GURPS Magic. Period, as you say.

The "helpful" answer here is the factual one: that pre-modern age technology does not produce enough MW to meet Draw Power's requirements. As far as to whether such an answer is a good advertisement for the system, I think it's a fine advertisement: as I likewise said uptopic, more than just about any other game on the market, GURPS strives for accuracy and verisimilitude. The less we downplay that in favor of blathering for dozens of posts over fuzzy non-answers the better.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by lugaid

Which is to say, GURPS Magic makes a good starting point, maybe even a good ending point for some settings, but let's also maybe leave some room for adjusting it, per Thaumatology's suggestions and implications, to better fit what we come up with in our imaginations. After all, the game as previously written (hastily, in some cases) shouldn't be taking primacy over that. Or at least I think so, though your preferences may vary.

As I've said before, I wasn't even talking about that. The question asked was, "Can Draw Power be used in a medievalistic setting to provide massive amounts of mana to power spells and enchantments?" And I was answering that question: No, Draw Power (as written) can't be used that way, because a medieval setting has no suitable power or energy sources in its technology. In fact, it doesn't really have such sources for the FP-per-minute variant I came up with, though it's less improbable that you might contrive some.

Obviously, GMs can come up with other ways to approach the question, such as the ones you point out. But I don't see that it's my job to point that out. Logically, if you have the statement "Draw Power as written cannot provide sufficient mana in a medieval setting," it leads to one of two conclusions: (i) you can't have that much mana in a medieval setting or (ii) you must be using something other than Draw Power as written. I said nothing to argue for (i) rather than (ii).

Though I would make two cautionary notes:

(i) While FP are purely a game mechanical concept, they are used to represent something that is not purely game mechanical: the ability to cast some spells and not others. That kind of limitation is going to be a feature of most portrayals of magic, and needs to be taken into account, just as the ability of a combatant to survive some injuries and not others needs to be taken into account, whether or not you use the game mechanical concept of HP.

(ii) If you are going to change the energy cost of FP, it's going to make much better sense if you change it consistently for all Tech College spells. And that will have worldbuilding assumptions. If, for example, you say that 6 kW is one FP/second rather than 1 FP/minute, then you have implied that 100 W is 1 FP/minute, and that putting half a dozen men on a treadmill will let you spend a net 5 FP/minute for several hours. Bing! Suddenly magic is no longer scarce, and you need to think through other features of your world.

"Take what you like," said God. "Take it, and pay for it."

[dcarson]

Using the RPM rule where you can get power from an area but it is lifeless afterwards might fit some worlds. Lots of blighted battlefields probably.

[fwcain]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

There was once discussion of allowing Low TL Draw Power mages to pull energy from natural phenomena. The effect would be to turn waterfalls, areas with strong & predictable winds, etc. into highly desirable magical "nodes" where powerful mages could draw essentially unlimited power.

I distinctly recall this being the basis for an article in an old issue of Pyramid magazine. Unfortunately, I do not recall the title of the article, nor the specific issue number in which it was published...

(Edit):

Originally Posted by Refplace

It was published in a prior Pyramid Kick starter. The article was titled "Supernatural Energy", authored by me and covered Control (Mana), and various ways to share power between mages or draw upon differing sources.

I had not yet read this post, before making my reply, above. Sorry...

[malloyd]

A bit of context to this that's probably obvious to the old hands, but may not be to everybody, is that many of us regard Draw Power as the most badly broken of quite a few broken spells introduced in GURPS Grimoire, and think the entire [concept] of establishing a numerical link between spell "energy" and physical energy to have been a serious mistake. It barely even does the intended job in the intended setting (Ultratech with magic).

The unstated conclusion here is that if you are going to have to apply house rule changes the spell [anyway], you're wasting effort better spent on ditching it [entirely] and writing something that isn't quite as broken. It's not that hard, OTTOMH:

Wheel Maintenance (VH)
Duration: Special
Cost: Equal to the normal maintenance cost of the spell
Time to Cast: 2 seconds, plus "programming" time.
Prerequisite: At least 6 Water spells and Maintain Spell.
This spell is cast on one of the caster's ongoing spells. It functions exactly like Maintain Spell except that the caster need not provide an energy pool for the spell to draw on, instead it imposes a load on a waterwheel (or similar device) at least large enough to power a small mill. The caster must touch the wheel to hand off the spell. The spell must remain within "line of sight" (approximately 3 miles) of the wheel, but otherwise it continues to be maintained as long as the wheel continues to spin, if it stops for any reason the spell terminates. A single wheel can support multiple spells, provided their maintenance requirements properly staggered; on any turn the wheel is required to supply more than 10 energy, it stops and all the spells supplied terminate.
If you also know 6 or more Air spells, you may hand off a spell to a windmill as well, though it is considerably less useful, since windmills are liable to stop quite often.

Lightning Forging (VH)
Duration: Instant. Spells have their standard duration. Enchanted items are permanent until destroyed
Cost: None
Time to Cast: 1 minute
Prerequisite: 7 Air spells including Lightning, and either Link or Enchant\
This spell can only be cast when the caster is standing directly under a natural (i.e. not created or magically influenced in any way) thunderstorm. In order to use it he must make all the necessary rolls to cast some other spell or create some other enchantment *except* rolls to gather energy or otherwise provide the necessary energy. If all those rolls are successful, he may then cast Lightning Forging at a penalty of -1 per 1000 (or fraction thereof) energy would be required to activate the spell or enchantment. Sheets of lightning descend from the storm sapping its energy (the storm collapses into a particularly intense but short downpour). If the skill roll succeeded the spell or enchantment takes effect. If it fails no magic takes place, but any item intended to be enspelled or enchanted is destroyed. If it critically fails the [caster] is destroyed (no resistance is possible, Unkillable does not apply, Speak with Dead or Ressurrection connects to his soul so shattered by the power surge as to be a drooling idiot for a minimum of 1d centuries) and [some] enchantment manifests, but probably not the one intended....

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by malloyd

T wasting effort better spent on ditching it [entirely] and writing something that isn't quite as broken. It's not that hard, OTTOMH:

Wheel Maintenance (VH)
Duration: Special
Cost: Equal to the normal maintenance cost of the spell
Time to Cast: 2 seconds, plus "programming" time.
Prerequisite: At least 6 Water spells and Maintain Spell.


Lightning Forging (VH)
Duration: Instant. Spells have their standard duration. Enchanted items are permanent until destroyed
Cost: None
Time to Cast: 1 minute
Prerequisite: 7 Air spells including Lightning, and either Link or Enchant\
..

Nope, Wheel Maintenance is a peculiar but very cheap way of creating Permanent Spells in the vicinity of waterwheels and Lightning Forging is a difficult foolkiller. There probably ought to be a significant distraction penalty to trying to Enchant in a thunderstorm and never mind the soul-shattering you can get killed by mundane lightning before you can get the Enchantment off.

I will admit that in Florida you could try an schedule Q&D work to coincide with thunderstorms (used to be at about 3:00 in the afternoon in the summer) but sensible people go inside when one starts.

If a mage of mine came across these two Spells he might try and exploit the first but he'd ignore the second or possibly send it to an enemy of dubious mental stability.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Nope, Wheel Maintenance is a peculiar but very cheap way of creating Permanent Spells in the vicinity of waterwheels and Lightning Forging is a difficult foolkiller.

Well that's sort of the point. The reason people want Draw Power to work in a Fantasy setting is to enable stuff like cheap permanent spells and quick high power enchantments, so those are the effects you need to have, and adding some substantial drawbacks, here a sharp energy cap and a ridiculous level of risk respectively, is essential to that "less broken" goal.