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Old 11-12-2014, 04:12 PM   #121
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by Vynticator View Post
I think in that situation, almost any game ruleset would produce the same outcome. I'm not sure how TG would alter that? Rule 1: keep the caster out of melee!
You'd be wrong.
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Originally Posted by Martial Arts: Technical Grappling p. 23
Concentrate requires a Will roll at a penalty equal to your foe’s Trained ST, modified for CP, maximum 0 – your CP may eliminate the penalty but will never provide a bonus.
So with TG you can take actions to get enough CP to reduce the penalty and cast your spell. Without TG if someone grabs you with even one hand you automagically can't Concentrate.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 11-12-2014 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:23 PM   #122
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
The actual problem seems to have been Icelander's line about "current grappling rules, i.e. GURPS Technical Grappling." If you say that something is current, you are saying that the other forms are not current, that is, are obsolete or no longer in force. That's kind of a provocative statement about a set of rules that are in the Basic Set. I don't care in the slightest about the specific feat that was being asked about. . . .
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I did state that I had looked at No Grasping Hand for this and if there was nothing more specific to use in the book, I was probably going to assume that an arm with an occupied hand provided 0.3xST.
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
That would appear to be the situation. So let's proceed as if the troublesome post was an honest mistake. There's interesting, on-topic stuff to discuss, after all!
Language can be funny like that. "Current" could mean "this editions' core rules" as easily as it could mean "the most current supplement on the subject." :-)
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:27 PM   #123
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
You'd be wrong.

So with TG you can take actions to get enough CP to reduce the penalty and cast your spell. Without TG if someone grabs you with even one hand you automagically can't Concentrate.
Note that this particular rule was thought of like this:

Hmm. Even a totally weak grapple means you can't concentrate in RAW. Not all grapples are totally weak. But this would be a real departure if I made it easy. So I'll make it hard, but with enough skill or the right moves, you can overcome it.

If there's a house-rule waiting to happen, it's here.
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:39 PM   #124
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Note that this particular rule was thought of like this:

Hmm. Even a totally weak grapple means you can't concentrate in RAW. Not all grapples are totally weak. But this would be a real departure if I made it easy. So I'll make it hard, but with enough skill or the right moves, you can overcome it.

If there's a house-rule waiting to happen, it's here.
Also, the Willful Warrior perk from Pyramid #3/61 Way of the Warrior (p. 5) gives a +3 bonus per level on your Will to continue concentrating.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:49 PM   #125
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Also, the Willful Warrior perk from Pyramid #3/61 Way of the Warrior (p. 5) gives a +3 bonus per level on your Will to continue concentrating.
This is true, but as a practical matter, getting grappled makes concentration nearly impossible. Doug and I have been chatting about this even as I've written my own house rules on the problem in conjunction with my players. It all sounds good until a Trained ST 28+ guy grabs you, and can easily fend off your attempts to build up enough CP to be able to Concentrate.

Willfull Warrior helps, though, but it's still a steep, steep hill to climb using any form of grappling rules.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:52 PM   #126
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
This is true, but as a practical matter, getting grappled makes concentration nearly impossible. Doug and I have been chatting about this even as I've written my own house rules on the problem in conjunction with my players. It all sounds good until a Trained ST 28+ guy grabs you, and can easily fend off your attempts to build up enough CP to be able to Concentrate.

Willfull Warrior helps, though, but it's still a steep, steep hill to climb using any form of grappling rules.
On the other hand with the other rules a character of any size or strength only needs to succeed at grabbing you to prevent concentration, which seems silly.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:56 PM   #127
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
On the other hand with the other rules a character of any size or strength only needs to succeed at grabbing you to prevent concentration, which seems silly.
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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
This is true, but as a practical matter, getting grappled makes concentration nearly impossible. Doug and I have been chatting about this even as I've written my own house rules on the problem in conjunction with my players. It all sounds good until a Trained ST 28+ guy grabs you, and can easily fend off your attempts to build up enough CP to be able to Concentrate.

Willfull Warrior helps, though, but it's still a steep, steep hill to climb using any form of grappling rules.
I'd be interesting in seeing such rules should you want someone to help playtest them.
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:07 PM   #128
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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I'd be interesting in seeing such rules should you want someone to help playtest them.
I'll let you know once we settle on what to try.
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:09 PM   #129
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
On the other hand with the other rules a character of any size or strength only needs to succeed at grabbing you to prevent concentration, which seems silly.
Looking at the rules, we ended up figuring that the basic rules say "You can't Concentrate" and the TG rules say "You can, at such a huge penalty that your chances are 0% with a sufficiently strong foe" and deciding we'd need a third way. We'll see how it works out, and if it does, it'll eventually show up somewhere for common use.
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:22 PM   #130
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Looking at the rules, we ended up figuring that the basic rules say "You can't Concentrate" and the TG rules say "You can, at such a huge penalty that your chances are 0% with a sufficiently strong foe" and deciding we'd need a third way. We'll see how it works out, and if it does, it'll eventually show up somewhere for common use.
I would use TG and introduce All-Out Concentrate with a bonus of, pick one:
+ HT (or maybe ST or even Will again)
+ 10
+ Opponent's Trained ST (to cancel out the penalty)

That way, you can throw everything into a Concentrate that's reasonably likely to succeed, but if you fail (or whatever you did with Concentrate didn't end the fight), you're probably in for a righteous pummeling.
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