How big are elementals?

Shaira · 12-30-2021, 03:45 AM

Hi everyone,

I've seen a few mentions in this forum of 1 hex, 2 hex, 3 hex, and 4 hex elementals. That certainly gels with how I imagine TFT elementals, but I can't find any reference in the RAW which describes how big they are. It seems reasonable to assume a ST60 elemental would be larger than a ST30 one, which in turn would be larger than a ST10 one.

Am I missing a reference in the RAW somewhere?

Cheers,

Sarah

Shostak · 12-30-2021, 07:11 AM

I think the default is 1-hex (considering the fire elemental counter in one of the core games). But I don’t think there is anything in RAW that says that they can’t be larger.

phiwum · 12-30-2021, 07:56 AM

I agree with Shostak.

I have seen a discussion tying high ST to multihex critters, found here, but it was Henry's derivation of a house rule, nothing official, and elementals weren't explicitly mentioned.

If you want a multihex elemental (as GM), then I don't see why you don't just make one. It's not stupid to think that an unusually strong elemental is also unusually big. Now, if you're a player who wants to make a multihex elemental, I guess that's 'tween you and the GM.

hcobb · 12-30-2021, 08:10 AM

From the notes in the rulebook a ST 14 elemental appears to be around man sized, while the ST 60 Air elemental seems best modeled as a megahex.

The different types have different densities, so their volume per unit ST may differ. Note that hex size is much more about attack reach (and stomping) than actual bulk.

So I'd divide Elemental ST by 15 (10 for Air, 25 for Earth, 35 for stone or metal) then round down to give the size in hexes.

There are ST 50 1-hex elementals in GamBal's Citadel of Ice and Dark Lord's Doom.

On the other hand the official adventure Katiki-Mu has a ST 40 3-hex elemental-like creature.

Bill_in_IN · 12-30-2021, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

From the notes in the rulebook a ST 14 elemental appears to be around man sized, while the ST 60 Air elemental seems best modeled as a megahex.

The different types have different densities, so their volume per unit ST may differ. Note that hex size is much more about attack reach (and stomping) than actual bulk.

So I'd divide Elemental ST by 15 (10 for Air, 25 for Earth, 35 for stone or metal) then round down to give the size in hexes.

There are ST 50 1-hex elementals in GamBal's Citadel of Ice and Dark Lord's Doom.

On the other hand the official adventure Katiki-Mu has a ST 40 3-hex elemental-like creature.

I concur that this is a good rule of thumb to follow. I used to free-form the size based upon strength and the results were similar.

TFT left much open for the GM to go by the seat of your pants and still stay within reason.

Rolando · 12-31-2021, 10:28 AM

I think elementals can be almost any size, with little connection to their strength.

They can be dense, packed, mostly dispersed, with a long thin shape or some other configuration.

In that way they may be one hex with ST 40+ or 3 hexes with ST 12 (a thinner and expanded wave form for water elementals for example, or a stick figure like earth elemental).

Dramatic effect and GM choice is the key, not game mechanic, in my humble opinion. If anything, elemental spirits and other creatures of magic are better if not easily defined and cataloged by a game formula.

On the other hand an amount of matter (in pounds) may be a good way of making the ST/size more scientific, the more matter there is the more powerful the physical form of the spirit (so the higher the ST). But even this is less magical than saying the ST of a nature spirit is relative to its magical power and not the amount of matter it uses to shape itself.

hcobb · 12-31-2021, 11:00 AM

Reverse this calculation, how much silver does a wizard get to march out of the mine on its own through the creation of a ST 14 elemental?

phiwum · 12-31-2021, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolando

Dramatic effect and GM choice is the key, not game mechanic, in my humble opinion. If anything, elemental spirits and other creatures of magic are better if not easily defined and cataloged by a game formula.

This, I think, is very sensible.

To be fair, it's possible that on rare occasions, a player will want to make a high ST elemental. At those times, it would be useful to have rough and ready rules. A multihex figure has great advantages over a single hex, in many situations, so the players will be itching for a bigger figure if they can get it.

Steve Plambeck · 01-01-2022, 03:46 AM

Well let me see. In my group's World's cosmology an elemental was one step below a Lesser Demon (a 1 hex figure under RAW). A Lesser Demon was one step below a Greater Demon (a 3 hex figure under RAW). A Greater Demon was one step below a Lesser God, and a Lesser God was one step below a Greater God. Which could manifest as as large (or as small) a figure as it wanted to be on a Melee map, depending on its currently available Mana Attribute (yes, in our World, we had a separate Mana Attribute). I was going to make Thor a 19 hex figure, but that campaign ended before we got that far. Maybe that was just as well.

Which is surely way beyond the scope of the original post. I've just had a lot of champagne and wanted to say

HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone.

12-30-2021, 03:45 AM	#1
Shaira Join Date: Apr 2019	How big are elementals? Hi everyone, I've seen a few mentions in this forum of 1 hex, 2 hex, 3 hex, and 4 hex elementals. That certainly gels with how I imagine TFT elementals, but I can't find any reference in the RAW which describes how big they are. It seems reasonable to assume a ST60 elemental would be larger than a ST30 one, which in turn would be larger than a ST10 one. Am I missing a reference in the RAW somewhere? Cheers, Sarah

12-30-2021, 07:11 AM	#2
Shostak Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: New England	Re: How big are elementals? I think the default is 1-hex (considering the fire elemental counter in one of the core games). But I don’t think there is anything in RAW that says that they can’t be larger. __________________ * * * * Anthony Shostak myriangia.wordpress.com

12-30-2021, 07:56 AM	#3
phiwum Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Boston area	Re: How big are elementals? I agree with Shostak. I have seen a discussion tying high ST to multihex critters, found here, but it was Henry's derivation of a house rule, nothing official, and elementals weren't explicitly mentioned. If you want a multihex elemental (as GM), then I don't see why you don't just make one. It's not stupid to think that an unusually strong elemental is also unusually big. Now, if you're a player who wants to make a multihex elemental, I guess that's 'tween you and the GM.

12-30-2021, 08:10 AM	#4
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: How big are elementals? From the notes in the rulebook a ST 14 elemental appears to be around man sized, while the ST 60 Air elemental seems best modeled as a megahex. The different types have different densities, so their volume per unit ST may differ. Note that hex size is much more about attack reach (and stomping) than actual bulk. So I'd divide Elemental ST by 15 (10 for Air, 25 for Earth, 35 for stone or metal) then round down to give the size in hexes. There are ST 50 1-hex elementals in GamBal's Citadel of Ice and Dark Lord's Doom. On the other hand the official adventure Katiki-Mu has a ST 40 3-hex elemental-like creature. __________________ -HJC

12-31-2021, 10:28 AM	#6
Rolando MIB Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Panama	Re: How big are elementals? I think elementals can be almost any size, with little connection to their strength. They can be dense, packed, mostly dispersed, with a long thin shape or some other configuration. In that way they may be one hex with ST 40+ or 3 hexes with ST 12 (a thinner and expanded wave form for water elementals for example, or a stick figure like earth elemental). Dramatic effect and GM choice is the key, not game mechanic, in my humble opinion. If anything, elemental spirits and other creatures of magic are better if not easily defined and cataloged by a game formula. On the other hand an amount of matter (in pounds) may be a good way of making the ST/size more scientific, the more matter there is the more powerful the physical form of the spirit (so the higher the ST). But even this is less magical than saying the ST of a nature spirit is relative to its magical power and not the amount of matter it uses to shape itself.

12-31-2021, 11:00 AM	#7
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: How big are elementals? Reverse this calculation, how much silver does a wizard get to march out of the mine on its own through the creation of a ST 14 elemental? __________________ -HJC

01-01-2022, 03:46 AM	#9
Steve Plambeck Join Date: Jun 2019	Re: How big are elementals? Well let me see. In my group's World's cosmology an elemental was one step below a Lesser Demon (a 1 hex figure under RAW). A Lesser Demon was one step below a Greater Demon (a 3 hex figure under RAW). A Greater Demon was one step below a Lesser God, and a Lesser God was one step below a Greater God. Which could manifest as as large (or as small) a figure as it wanted to be on a Melee map, depending on its currently available Mana Attribute (yes, in our World, we had a separate Mana Attribute). I was going to make Thor a 19 hex figure, but that campaign ended before we got that far. Maybe that was just as well. Which is surely way beyond the scope of the original post. I've just had a lot of champagne and wanted to say HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone. __________________ "I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I'm right."