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Old 01-17-2021, 11:13 AM   #11
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Truthsayer is kind of limited; you only need to tell one polite, white lie every few minutes to make it nearly useless (or tell a polite lie every time you think a mage is about to cast the sell).
It can be cast to test whether the last thing someone said was a lie. So you get asked a question in a court, the and the spell is used to test it.

The most desirable thing would be a Compel Truth item, preferably one with at least Power-16.
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Old 01-17-2021, 01:29 PM   #12
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Default Re: Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

People of sufficient wealth can pay to have false memories implanted. Therefore, use of truthsayer on people of such wealth is unreliable. Due to this precedent, it's just not used on people who COULD afford to alter their memory or afford to buy "truthful" false witnesses.

No actual falseness is necessary due to precedent, just having the wealth to make it theoretically possible.
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Old 01-17-2021, 02:40 PM   #13
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Default Re: Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

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People of sufficient wealth can pay to have false memories implanted. Therefore, use of truthsayer on people of such wealth is unreliable.
To the wealthy and powerful that write the law that is a feature not a problem. So they want Truthsayer to be used. The occasional noble that gets caught because he didn't cover up correctly or had another noble set him up is a bonus.
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Old 01-17-2021, 03:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

One thing on all this - we have to throw out all our modern concepts of law. Even if jury trials are allowed they were not impartial - in fact in the Middle Ages outside of the Inquisitions the jury was selected from people who knew the defendant.

What law Meglos has is likely an extension of what ever Roman law was still around or vaguely remembered.
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Old 01-17-2021, 04:55 PM   #15
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Default Re: Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

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Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
Of course the tax court in Tredroy has a torque with Compel Truth that you have to wear when swearing your tax returns are complete and accurate but even in that wealthy city I believe they only have the one.
I was just reading GURPS Tredroy ( 3rd ) page 7 says it are 10 helmets, which are constantly in use with power 20.
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Old 01-17-2021, 07:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
It can be cast to test whether the last thing someone said was a lie. So you get asked a question in a court, the and the spell is used to test it.

The most desirable thing would be a Compel Truth item, preferably one with at least Power-16.
"I didn't kill the victim - I wasn't anyone near him that day, I didn't even leave my house until an hour after he died!"

You know from Truthsayer that something in that statement is untrue. Did the accused not kill the victim, or was he near him that day, or did he leave his house less than an hour after the victim died?

Obviously, the judge should make sure that witnesses make simple statements that can be checked individually, but at 2-3 FP per casting, it's going to be hard to cast Truthsayer that often.
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Old 01-17-2021, 08:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
"I didn't kill the victim - I wasn't anyone near him that day, I didn't even leave my house until an hour after he died!"

You know from Truthsayer that something in that statement is untrue. Did the accused not kill the victim, or was he near him that day, or did he leave his house less than an hour after the victim died?

Obviously, the judge should make sure that witnesses make simple statements that can be checked individually, but at 2-3 FP per casting, it's going to be hard to cast Truthsayer that often.
Once again in a court setting it's simple enough to ask "Did you lie at any point in your testimony?" and cover all your bases.
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Old 01-17-2021, 11:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

If they are playing games to make it difficult and they aren't important you declare them in contempt of court and the bailiff takes them out front and gives them 10 lashes. Then you question them again the next day if the mage needs rest.
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Old 01-18-2021, 05:49 AM   #19
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Default Re: Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

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Originally Posted by Willy View Post
I was just reading GURPS Tredroy ( 3rd ) page 7 says it are 10 helmets, which are constantly in use with power 20.
Ah, I should have checked! I don't have a good grasp of how the enchantment system works or how much money a particular bit of kit is going to represent.

It makes me reconsider assigning a single Compel Truth enchantment to each court.


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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
One thing on all this - we have to throw out all our modern concepts of law. Even if jury trials are allowed they were not impartial - in fact in the Middle Ages outside of the Inquisitions the jury was selected from people who knew the defendant.

What law Meglos has is likely an extension of what ever Roman law was still around or vaguely remembered.
Simon Menalaeus the first Emperor is supposed to have had quite an extensive collection of classical texts from Earth and a good knowledge of Roman history. Given the date of the Banestorm I think it's likely that he would know of the Justinian Code of the sixth century and I'd be more inclined to import aspects of that if I knew anything at all about it other than the date and the origins in Roman Imperial law.

Roman Republican law did have juries of course as did Classical Athens usually of a considerable size. But again the date of the Banestorm makes the inheritance of the English jury a little unlikely.
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Old 01-18-2021, 01:14 PM   #20
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Default Re: Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Once again in a court setting it's simple enough to ask "Did you lie at any point in your testimony?" and cover all your bases.
"Yes, I lied, I don't really like my boss' wife that much."

and if the judge asks about any other lies:

"I may have told one or two other white lies." It's a true statement, even if I also told multiple major lies in addition.

That's before you get into complex situations, like "I lied about the name of the person I said I had lunch with, because his or her family would prefer that we didn't meet, but it has no bearing on the investigation." Even if the prosecutors have a warrant to compel truth from a witness or suspect, there's going to be limits to how deeply they can probe, and lies about non-relevant details are going to complicate finding the truth about relevant details.
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