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Old 06-13-2021, 08:23 AM   #11
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: Going Berserk on your friends?

There is nothing in the definition of Berserk that says you won't attack your friends. In fact, it says explicitly that if you run out of foes, "you start to attack your friends," and it instructs you to "Treat any friend who attempts to restrain you as a foe!" No exception is made for those toward whom you have Sense of Duty. And I don't think one should be made; if people actually are your friends, it's likely that you will treat them as if you had some measure of Sense of Duty toward them, and particularly as much as would prevent you from attacking them, whether you've taken it as a disadvantage or not. The category of "friends" logically includes "people toward whom you have a Sense of Duty."

And I think that the likelihood that you may attack your friends when in battle mode is one of the biggest reasons that Berserk is actually a disadvantage. Without that element, it would be much less of one. Okay, it would cause you to charge into battle, but it's widely testified that PCs rarely die in combat and that many GMs will fudge dice rolls to prevent it; I don't think that's enough of a problem to make this a major disadvantage.

If you have that combination, I would not penalize you for bad roleplaying if your character goes berserk and attacks their companions; I would say that you didn't choose to do so, but had it forced on you by the dice rolls. And I think the aftermath, when you come back to yourself and discover that the people you would risk your life to help have been hurt by your rage, is an opportunity for some really interesting roleplaying.
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Old 06-13-2021, 09:20 AM   #12
Inky
 
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Default Re: Going Berserk on your friends?

It's one possible kind of scenario you might want to play, some players might not want to. But it's certainly a classic one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
If you think it is an extreme case, in Vampire the Masquerade, a game mostly about personal horror, some vampires are cursed with a terrible temper, basically the Berserk disadvantage, but they were normal people and some were very pacifistic before being cursed.
If you're talking about Frenzy, I'm pretty sure all Vampire: the Masquerade vampires have that. Clan Brujah have it worse than others (-2 to resist, can't spend Willpower Points for a bonus when rolling to avoid it starting), did you mean them?

In V:tM the Code of Honour feature (otherwise much like GURPS's Code of Honour) does give you a bonus on any Willpower rolls to resist doing something that would be against the particular Code of Honour, including, I presume, resisting frenzy.
However, possibly relevant to this discussion, in V:tM Code of Honour is the equivalent of an Advantage - you pay points for it, rather than being given points for it.
In V:tM Willpower rolls are a huge part of the game - frenzy, rotschreck (the "nope I'm outta here" version of frenzy that results from failing the equivalent of a Fright Check), enemy vampires trying to hypnotize your character, the whole mess that is blood bonds - and apparently the advantage that a Code of Honour gives you in those is worth more in that kind of game than the inconvenience of having to follow it.
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Old 06-13-2021, 10:38 AM   #13
Rolando
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Panama
Default Re: Going Berserk on your friends?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inky View Post
It's one possible kind of scenario you might want to play, some players might not want to. But it's certainly a classic one.


If you're talking about Frenzy, I'm pretty sure all Vampire: the Masquerade vampires have that. Clan Brujah have it worse than others (-2 to resist, can't spend Willpower Points for a bonus when rolling to avoid it starting), did you mean them?
...
yes, of course the Brujah, I think it is a good example of the concept of regretfully hurting people because of filed self control.

In the 3ed GURPS Vampire the Masquerade the rules used Will, now we have Self Control rolls for each disadvantage that can be controlled. But the situation is the same.

I see no reason to reduce the chances of losing control and I think doing that diminish the disadvantage a bit. I thik each case is special and that is a GM call if anything but if disadvantages are not enforced they are just free points and decoration and not the good opportunities for role playing they should be.
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Old 06-13-2021, 10:55 AM   #14
Sunrunners_Fire
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: Going Berserk on your friends?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
What kind of bonus to a self-control roll to not attack a friend would a Berserker get for having a Sense of Duty to that person?
Sense of Duty provides neither a bonus nor a penalty to this check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
It's easy for me to imagine a dog that would easily go Berserk on someone who attacked his owner (i.e. a low self-control number) - and would be uncontrollable by that owner - but who would never attack the owner.
That would be better represented by Bad Temper than Berserk.

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
As an additional question: what kind of limitation on the disadvantage do you think it would it be to never harm someone unintentionally? One person? A group of people?
I wouldn't permit such a limitation in my games. This reads as an attempt to game the disadvantage into being a beneficial trait. If I was convinced to do so against my better judgement, it would be Mitigator ("Sense of Duty"; Vulnerable Mitigator), -60%
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Old 06-13-2021, 03:35 PM   #15
DangerousThing
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: Going Berserk on your friends?

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
If you combine Berserk with Bad Temper it basically turns you into a complete murder-monster. (really this should be its own disadvantage, it is far worse than the two together separately)
This is a known fatal combination.

Any gm that allows such a character is... not advising their players properly.
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Old 06-14-2021, 12:12 AM   #16
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Going Berserk on your friends?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
In the 3ed GURPS Vampire the Masquerade the rules used Will, now we have Self Control rolls for each disadvantage that can be controlled. But the situation is the same.
Actually, Will was divided into 4 parts which dealt with frenzy, rotschreck, humanity loss, and "everything else." Under GURPS 4e, these would be treated as altered Self-Control rolls to resist a particular problem or as limitations to basic Will. Nothing in the GURPS VtM rules gave you bonus to Will rolls if you had a Code of Honor. Instead, the beneficial effects of CoH were covered by the Higher Purpose advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
I see no reason to reduce the chances of losing control and I think doing that diminish the disadvantage a bit.
I agree, but there are exceptions. Good roleplaying, dramatic necessity, and genre conventions can also trump RAW if the GM feels that it is appropriate. For example, in a campaign based on fairy tales, the power of True Love might overcome Berserk, particularly if the object of the True Love can make a successful skill roll (Fast Talk, Psychology, or Sex Appeal all seem likely).
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Old 06-14-2021, 12:59 AM   #17
RedMattis
 
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Default Re: Going Berserk on your friends?

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Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
This is a known fatal combination.

Any gm that allows such a character is... not advising their players properly.
Indeed, but a bigger issue is that the point value should be much higher for the combination. I'd peg it at -40 points since even something trivial like getting stuck in traffic could probably trigger you.

Also, it can be appropriate for PCs, especially someone who only has it in an alternate form (werewolves), or monsters with hair-trigger tempers like VtM-style vampires.
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Old 06-22-2021, 06:28 PM   #18
Black Leviathan
 
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Default Re: Going Berserk on your friends?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
[URL="https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/mitigator"] Though I'd disagree that a Disadvantage can't on occasion produce a good result. They're net bad traits, but not universally absolutely monotonically bad traits.
I'm done with players trying to use things they got free points for, and normally get XP for, as a way to get even more benefit. You can define your character in positive traits just as easily as you do in negative traits. As others pointed out a Sense of Duty is just a Higher Purpose to look after people that doesn't help you. And I really believe no disadvantage should offer you a mechanical boon unless it's specifically stated in the rules.
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Old 06-27-2021, 06:55 AM   #19
Emerikol
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Eastern Kentucky
Default Re: Going Berserk on your friends?

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
There is nothing in the definition of Berserk that says you won't attack your friends.
I unfortunately don't have the books in front of me at this moment but if the post previously on berserk is from the book then only unbound would attack allies.

Is he inaccurately quoting the book?
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Old 06-27-2021, 03:55 PM   #20
DangerousThing
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: Going Berserk on your friends?

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Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post
I unfortunately don't have the books in front of me at this moment but if the post previously on berserk is from the book then only unbound would attack allies.

Is he inaccurately quoting the book?
No. He even starts his post with "If I were rewriting it".

By RAW, you will attack friends after all the enemies are downed, unless you can make a self-control roll. It is a disadvantage, after all.
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