What do Dungeon Fantasy templates lack?

[Not]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Kromm's list of skills every adventurer should have is, in my opinion, the most basic template for creating a GURPS character.

I always add Area Knowledge as a basic background trait to my characters, and often some form of Current Affairs. For modern characters, Computer Operation should be added. That makes for a basically well-rounded character. Anything else that's important will probably be tied to the character concept, i.e. Blacksmith or Computer Programming or Teaching.

If your game system needs 14 skills to start before adding anything to the character, that's an argument for striking those skills altogether and just rolling off attributes. Skill inventory is already very cluttered.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by Not

If your game system needs 14 skills to start before adding anything to the character, that's an argument for striking those skills altogether and just rolling off attributes. Skill inventory is already very cluttered.

It sounds more like that's a list of skills players assume their characters have, and the list is a way to point out to them that in base GURPS their characters don't by default.

I agree otherwise. I might create a wildcard skill like "Adventurer!".

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The real key here would be breaking the "rules" about choosing upgrade modules. Frankly, I expect a lot of folks to discard the strictures of the prerequisites and building characters free-form.

I think of the Prerequisites as being more about niche-protection than anything else. So long as the rest of the players are comfortable with this character invading another niche, everything should be fine (I feel it would work really well if the character lacks other traits needed for the niche, and/or has other traits ill-suited for it - Shigran can be a sneaky guy, but he lacks pretty much every other Thief skill and has Bloodlust and Impulsive on top of that, meaning the party would still need a Thief). It's like the Cosmic symbols from PU4 - it's a sign to the GM to be careful, not a hard rule.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Making a strong delver with the chops of an archer can be as simple as adding the Archery Specialist upgrade to an existing character and making the right weapon selections. Picking up Heroic Archer (and unlocking it from Scout-only) is the next step.

Heroic Archer lends itself easily to an Upgrade module - Heroic Archer [20], Strongbow [1], and [4] into Bow. Both that (maybe call it Bjorn Archer?) and Archery Specialist have Strongbow, so one instance would just be converted into [1] in the slush fund if you opt for both. The primary modification to Knight or Swashbuckler would just be having Bow as a primary weapon skill instead of a secondary one (and one of the melee skills as a secondary), and for the Knight to be able to pick up Armory (Missile Weapons) in place of Armory (Melee Weapons).

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Varyon

My inclination would be to add [25] worth of flavor traits - aka "My character is a person" traits - on top of the existing templates, with said flavor traits to be chosen by the player (although a list of eligible traits might be worthwhile). I feel that would be enough to make any DF character - from a [62] Novice to a [250+] Veteran - fit as an adventurer in most Fantasy settings. Note that's the same value as an Upgrade Module from Delver's to Grow, so in theory you could have it stand in for one of those - although I'd recommend against doing so, and just adding it on top instead.

As you note, said added traits should generally be of no - or at least very little - use to delving.

Something like :

********
25 cp "Actual person living in society" Upgrade Module

**Advantages

up to 18 cp of social advantages (unused remain goes to skills below) chosen among :
Age and beauty,
Social Background,
Wealth and Influence,
People (Contacts, Claim to Hospitality, Allies, Patrons, Favor)
Luck [15]

**Perks

Mundane background(current living area) [0]
Cultural familiarity(native culture) [0]

**Skills

1 Cp in Area Knowledge (current background) [1]
1 Cp in Current affairs(select 1 topic) [1]
1 Cp in Housekeeping [1]
1 Cp in one of Carousing, Connoisseur (any), Games (any), Hobby Skill (any), Musical Instrument (any), Singing, or Sports (any) [1]
1 Cp in a job prerequisite skill, depending on the job, or choose among animal handling, sewing, gardening, farming [1]
1 Cp in one of Savoir-faire(job related) or Streetwise or an influence skill [1]
1 Cp in one of hiking or riding [1]

You can spend any point not used for advantages to train or further improve any skills listed above.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I think of the Prerequisites as being more about niche-protection than anything else.

Agreed completely.

So long as the rest of the players are comfortable with this character invading another niche, everything should be fine (I feel it would work really well if the character lacks other traits needed for the niche, and/or has other traits ill-suited for it - Shigran can be a sneaky guy, but he lacks pretty much every other Thief skill and has Bloodlust and Impulsive on top of that, meaning the party would still need a Thief). It's like the Cosmic symbols from PU4 - it's a sign to the GM to be careful, not a hard rule.

Yarp.

Heroic Archer lends itself easily to an Upgrade module - Heroic Archer [20], Strongbow [1], and [4] into Bow. Both that (maybe call it Bjorn Archer?)

It is, I conclude with great regret, possible to overuse the Björn joke.

...and Archery Specialist have Strongbow, so one instance would just be converted into [1] in the slush fund if you opt for both.

Certainly one way to do it. If it's not already included, "Bow Fencer" would be an alternative to "Strongbow" and match thematically with "do crazy-wild stuff with bows." That way, Archery Specialist winds up being "moar damage" and our notional Legolas Wannabee with Heroic Archer, Bow Fencer, and perhaps even points dumped into Fast-Draw and Quick Ready or other such things that make our notional bowman into a machinegun.

The primary modification to Knight or Swashbuckler would just be having Bow as a primary weapon skill instead of a secondary one (and one of the melee skills as a secondary), and for the Knight to be able to pick up Armory (Missile Weapons) in place of Armory (Melee Weapons).

Yah.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

I always add Area Knowledge as a basic background trait to my characters, and often some form of Current Affairs. For modern characters, Computer Operation should be added.

For most non-IT people, Computer Operation is handled by defaults with generous general difficulty or extra time modifiers because they're not under adventuring pressure. It's simple enough for anyone nowadays to pay their phone bill online. But how many people do you know who could do that in one minute on someone else's computer while zombies are breaking down their front doors, moaning for their brains?

(I leave the question of why someone would want to do that to the philosophers.)

Area Knowledge, too, is generally performed using defaults, unless you're especially good at finding and knowing things about your home area. This is especially true since everyone has multiple home areas depending on the area class you want to use. I have knowledge of where the stores I go to in my home town are, but ask me about where some kind of store is that I don't go to and I might have to think about it (there's that extra time modifier again), and I might not even know.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

It is, I conclude with great regret, possible to overuse the Björn joke.

Blasphemy! It's the gift that just keeps giving. What am I supposed to name a Disadvantage module that includes Amnesia, if not Björn Identity?

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Certainly one way to do it. If it's not already included, "Bow Fencer" would be an alternative to "Strongbow" and match thematically with "do crazy-wild stuff with bows." That way, Archery Specialist winds up being "moar damage" and our notional Legolas Wannabee with Heroic Archer, Bow Fencer, and perhaps even points dumped into Fast-Draw and Quick Ready or other such things that make our notional bowman into a machinegun.

Bow Fencer is completely absent from Delvers to Grow, so I assumed it wasn't in DFRPG (which would imply TPTB decided it was ultimately a Bad Idea). I also thought it was more than a Perk, and thus wouldn't fit there - although including it as part of another Upgrade would certainly make sense in that case. A bit of online searching indicates it's worth [10] - perhaps a Bow Dancer Upgrade, with Prerequisites of Heroic Archer and Weapon Master (Bow) could consist of something like Bow Fencer [10], Enhanced Parry (Bow) [5], Striking ST 1 (Bow Only -40%) [3], [4] in Bow, and [3] in Fast-Draw (Arrow)?


However, I fear I'm getting a bit in the weeds on a tangent, here. Bringing things back around, I'll just reiterate what others have said - DF templates can work very well as jumping-off points for more nuanced Fantasy characters.

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

For most non-IT people, Computer Operation is handled by defaults with generous general difficulty or extra time modifiers because they're not under adventuring pressure. It's simple enough for anyone nowadays to pay their phone bill online. But how many people do you know who could do that in one minute on someone else's computer while zombies are breaking down their front doors, moaning for their brains?

Also, increasingly, ordinary folk aren't using typical computers, but rather smartphones and tablets that are designed to be sufficiently user-friendly that you don't need a skill to do whatever you're trying to do, just basic familiarity. But there I go, off on another tangent...

[Kalzazz]

Yeah pretty much once we identify Heroic Archer as the core 'can use a bow' gateway we can make a slew of different archers provided we remember enough skill they can hit something and fast draw arrows

Though once we get to 'identify the necessary components to make an archer then do that' it becomes somewhat hazier what benefit we are expecting the templates to give us.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Blasphemy! It's the gift that just keeps giving. What am I supposed to name a Disadvantage module that includes Amnesia, if not Björn Identity?

I find this argument compelling. Really, really compelling.

Bow Fencer is completely absent from Delvers to Grow, so I assumed it wasn't in DFRPG (which would imply TPTB decided it was ultimately a Bad Idea). I also thought it was more than a Perk, and thus wouldn't fit there - although including it as part of another Upgrade would certainly make sense in that case. A bit of online searching indicates it's worth [10] - perhaps a Bow Dancer Upgrade, with Prerequisites of Heroic Archer and Weapon Master (Bow) could consist of something like Bow Fencer [10], Enhanced Parry (Bow) [5], Striking ST 1 (Bow Only -40%) [3], [4] in Bow, and [3] in Fast-Draw (Arrow)?


However, I fear I'm getting a bit in the weeds on a tangent, here. Bringing things back around, I'll just reiterate what others have said - DF templates can work very well as jumping-off points for more nuanced Fantasy characters.

I even say as much in the intro to some of the example books. Get to 90% and competency with DtG...then tweak.

[Anders]

"Bjorn with a silver spoon"

Wealth: Wealthy [20]
Ride (Horse) DX+1 [4]
Savoir-Faire IQ [1]