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Old 08-27-2010, 11:25 AM   #11
Mathulhu
 
Join Date: May 2009
Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazander View Post
snip

1 level of Extra Attack (with no enhancements) and Dual Weapon attack are largely the same.

snip
This is where my confusion comes from. To me Extra Attack looks like Dual Weapon Technique for all weapon skills, like comparing ambidexterity and off hand weapon training. That is why they look like they shouldn't stack.

Should I just ignore the description and treat it as a way of spending points to get the desired result?
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Old 08-27-2010, 11:49 AM   #12
Kazander
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

As long as the game effect matches the intended game effect, there is no problem ignoring the description. You're paying points for a game effect, not a description.

Game mechanically, DWA is not much different than buying:

Extra Attack (single weapon skill only, -60%; can't buy more than 1 level, -20%) for 5 points. Either one of them benefits from the Off-hand Weapon Training perk.

(those aren't official limitations in any way , btw. Just numbers to give a -80% limitation total)

Dinadon, I have no idea where you get that assumption from; could you please illuminate me? I see it nowhere in the DF text. Given that many of the DF Templates have multiple weapon skills, it seems like something that should be laid out explicitly if it were true.
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Old 08-27-2010, 11:59 AM   #13
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

I confess, I've decided to ignore that "need a new limb/weapon for each attack" restriction. I'd call it a -20% limitation, or thereabouts - so if you combine it with Single Skill Only (-60%) you get 5 points per extra attack, which is a LOT like buying off the Dual Weapon Attack penalty for that skill.



EDIT: A big difference between Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack - if you use both attacks from DWA on the same guy, the victim gets a -1 on defenses. Extra Attack doesn't get this.
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Old 08-27-2010, 12:03 PM   #14
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazander View Post
Dinadon, I have no idea where you get that assumption from; could you please illuminate me? I see it nowhere in the DF text. Given that many of the DF Templates have multiple weapon skills, it seems like something that should be laid out explicitly if it were true.
I think, when someone complained about it to Kromm on the forums he commented on it. I do find this in DF3:

Quote:
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
...
When armed with two suitable melee weapons, you can
make a full-skill attack with both. Additional strikes due to All-
Out Attack (Double) or Extra Attack can come from either
weapon.
You canít combine this with Rapid Strike Ė you must
use just one weapon if you do that.
For gamers with GURPS Martial Arts, this is the technique
Dual-Weapon Attack (H) Skill-0 [5] plus the perk Off-Hand
Weapon Training [1]. For those without, the OHWT perk
replaces the OHWT technique (p. B232) and lets you ignore the
-4 off-hand penalty with the chosen combat skill. Fighters with
Ambidexterity donít need this perk, hence the price reduction.
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Old 08-27-2010, 12:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

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Originally Posted by Mathulhu View Post
This is where my confusion comes from. To me Extra Attack looks like Dual Weapon Technique for all weapon skills, like comparing ambidexterity and off hand weapon training. That is why they look like they shouldn't stack.
That's not so confusing. Actually, (1.) Extra Attack advantage, (2.) Dual Weapon Attack combat option, and (3.) Dual Weapon Attack (Specialized in Specific Weapon Skill) technique are three totally different entities.

1. Extra Attack advantage (p. B53) is an advantage that adds one to the default number of attacks you can make within one Attack maneuver.

2. Dual Weapon Attack combat option (p. B417) is one of the combat options, which can be used in conjunction with an Attack maneuver. This option exchanges one of your attacks into two simultaneous attacks both rolled at -4 (another -4 if off-hand). Anyone can attempt this Dual Weapon Attack combat option.

3. Dual Weapon Attack technique (p. B230) is a technique to which only cinematic martial artists has access. This technique offsets the -4 penalty when you perform Dual Weapon Attack combat option.

They are clearly different.
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Old 08-27-2010, 01:02 PM   #16
vitruvian
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

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Originally Posted by Mathulhu View Post
Good morning everyone,
I have a player who wants to combine these two to make three attacks. He is playing a normal human and the setting is only mildly cinematic.

It seems to me that they both do the same thing, allow an extra attack with the off-hand. So I think they shouldn't combine to allow three attacks.

I have found this post that says I am wrong.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=27

Does anyone know anything that might help me understand?
Has the character got feet, knees, elbows, or a forehead with which to do a head butt? Then he should be good to go. If not, or if there's some reason the third attack must come from one of two hands, then the character will want the Multistrike enhancement on the Extra Attack.
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Old 08-27-2010, 01:06 PM   #17
vitruvian
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

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Originally Posted by Fragwulf View Post
If you choose, you could make dual attacks for each of those actions (see B417), but it won't be easy. Buying the Dual Weapon Attack technique can make this easier.

All Out Attack (Double) is another way to have a dual attack, and is actually a little better off than just the way mentioned on B417, but is still risky.. you lose your active defense.. And you can only apply it to one attack action if you have multiple ones (per Extra Attack B53).
Nope, the restriction is to using DWA or Rapid Strike for one of your attacks, however gained (Extra Attack, All-Out Attack (Double)). You cannot DWA twice in a turn.
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Old 08-27-2010, 02:07 PM   #18
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Has the character got feet, knees, elbows, or a forehead with which to do a head butt? Then he should be good to go. If not, or if there's some reason the third attack must come from one of two hands, then the character will want the Multistrike enhancement on the Extra Attack.
Yes, this is my understanding of the situation. Without Enhancements Extra Attack needs to come from a previously uninvolved body part.

It need not be a limb holding a weapon. It doesn't need to be the same limb every time either.

With a knife in each hand you could do a DWA:Knife and then add a Kick or you could skip the DWA and attack with both knives with no penalty.
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Old 08-27-2010, 02:51 PM   #19
vitruvian
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack and Dual Weapon Attack

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Yes, this is my understanding of the situation. Without Enhancements Extra Attack needs to come from a previously uninvolved body part.

It need not be a limb holding a weapon. It doesn't need to be the same limb every time either.

With a knife in each hand you could do a DWA:Knife and then add a Kick or you could skip the DWA and attack with both knives with no penalty.
And 5 CP spent on Multistrike +20% will remove that restriction, or you could always use Rapid Strike (although you can't buy up a technique for that except for specific combinations or halving the penalty with TBAM or WM) instead of DWA and avoid the per-limb restriction from the get go.
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