Why do demons and devils want souls?

[Anders]

Demons are known to be cobblers, and are very interested in mending bad souls.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anders

Demons are known to be cobblers, and are very interested in mending bad souls.

Oof, that's a rough one. Reminds me of Mr. Grimm's ending in one of the Twisted Metal games - he's eaten all the souls in the world, and now demands Calysto's - to which Calysto replies something to the extent of "Your wish is granted" and stomps on Grimm's face, presumably killing him.

That said, the idea demons want souls to repair them is interesting - it makes Hell into something more akin to Purgatory, where the demons aren't actually evil but rather their torture etc is designed to purge the souls. It might be more appropriate for a "repaired" soul to undergo reincarnation to get a second chance at living well enough to not wind up in Hell again, rather than going to Heaven directly after being patched up (if Purgatory exists in such a setting, the souls that go there might be able to make it to Heaven once the stains are out; basically a clean soul goes to Heaven, a stained one goes to Purgatory to be cleaned, and a damaged one goes to Hell for repairs; cleaning is enough to get into Heaven, but a repaired soul needs to experience life again to finish healing).

In a situation like that, demons might purposefully harvest souls to help them get a head-start on the repair process. Or maybe the "repair" process consists more of taking several souls apart and stitching the serviceable bits back together (so a reincarnated individual actually has parts of the souls of several people, rather than just the repaired soul of one), and so demons harvest souls to get the parts they need to finish their current project (meaning they might specifically target individuals who have the relevant part of their soul still intact). Either case implies demons only harvest souls that are already damaged, although you could have a situation where the demons still try to get fully-intact souls, as such would basically be an excellent source of parts for repairing the damaged souls they're working on.

[Irish Wolf]

Originally Posted by Varyon

[T]he idea demons want souls to repair them is interesting - it makes Hell into something more akin to Purgatory, where the demons aren't actually evil but rather their torture etc is designed to purge the souls. It might be more appropriate for a "repaired" soul to undergo reincarnation to get a second chance at living well enough to not wind up in Hell again, rather than going to Heaven directly after being patched up (if Purgatory exists in such a setting, the souls that go there might be able to make it to Heaven once the stains are out; basically a clean soul goes to Heaven, a stained one goes to Purgatory to be cleaned, and a damaged one goes to Hell for repairs; cleaning is enough to get into Heaven, but a repaired soul needs to experience life again to finish healing).

There's a series (of sorts) on TikTok called Hell's Belles that features a similar concept - Our Heroines work at the Hellp Desk, where they assist souls who believe they've been misdirected. (Usually, the help they receive isn't what they wanted - if the Front Deathk has sent you to Hell, arguing with the Hellp isn't going to get you to Paradise). The first two levels of Hell are explicitly for therapy of various sorts, and apparently if you're willing to accept the justice of your punishment on lower levels you can then, after a time, be redirected to the therapy levels. Once you're judged to be rehabilitated, you can choose to be reincarnated to try again.

Most of the Hellp Desk workers are actually volunteers from their own Paradises (such things are, of course, individually crafted), except Ruggy, an aggressive karen in life who served her therapy by refusing to leave the Desk and becoming a rug (she was eventually promoted to desk decor, and then to intern - she's the resident expert on incoming karens). Ruggy's debating on whether she's well enough to be reincarnated.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Irish Wolf

There's a series (of sorts) on TikTok called Hell's Belles that features a similar concept - Our Heroines work at the Hellp Desk, where they assist souls who believe they've been misdirected. (Usually, the help they receive isn't what they wanted - if the Front Deathk has sent you to Hell, arguing with the Hellp isn't going to get you to Paradise). The first two levels of Hell are explicitly for therapy of various sorts, and apparently if you're willing to accept the justice of your punishment on lower levels you can then, after a time, be redirected to the therapy levels. Once you're judged to be rehabilitated, you can choose to be reincarnated to try again.

Most of the Hellp Desk workers are actually volunteers from their own Paradises (such things are, of course, individually crafted), except Ruggy, an aggressive karen in life who served her therapy by refusing to leave the Desk and becoming a rug (she was eventually promoted to desk decor, and then to intern - she's the resident expert on incoming karens). Ruggy's debating on whether she's well enough to be reincarnated.

That kind of makes me think of the end of Hellsing Ultimate Abridged - in the original story, Alucard accidentally consumes the blood of a being called Schrodinger who basically simultaneously exists everywhere and nowhere, and basically winks out of existence (he absorbs the powers of those he consumes); he returns a few decades later, after having basically killed off every single life he had consumed until only his initial self remained. The Abridged Series decided this was a stupid idea (and has Alucard make fun of such a thing), and instead has it be that Alucard had to resolve serve as a psychological counselor to all the lives he had consumed in order to help them move on to the afterlife (it took him 20 years to get through the first 5,424,867 people... and another 10 years to deal with all his own crap).

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

If one views demons and devils as Miltonian anti-heroes then the reasons stems from how magic works in the setting.

This^.

The thing is that post-Enlightenment Westerners have a hard time getting their minds around malevolence and malice as prime motivators. This in turns leads to recasting demonic entities as 'just another sapient' and trying to analyze them in terms of self-interests and rational motivations.

But even in some humans, malice can become a prime motivator, an end in itself. "Why do you hate me?"

"Because you exist."

This degree of corruption is actually relatively rare in humans. It does happen, though. This is that person who is fully prepared to torture you, kill you, hurt your family, etc., just for kicks. Just because you exist.

(Bullies tend to express this in a tiny tiny way, but it's still usually one motive among many.)

But a spiritual entity, with an open-ended 'lifespan' and a nature that reflects the mentality more directly, can go way further down this road than most humans would ever live long enough to do.

It's a mistake (one made by D&D and other games and stories) to characterize evil as a motivating principle, that is, 'x' does evil because of dedication to some abstract 'ideal of evil'. Genuine evil is more about self-interest out of all restraint, or at the further level, simple hatred for its own sake.

When we give demonic entities a rational, economic motive for behaving as they do, we turn them into something else.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

The thing is that post-Enlightenment Westerners have a hard time getting their minds around malevolence and malice as prime motivators. This in turns leads to recasting demonic entities as 'just another sapient' and trying to analyze them in terms of self-interests and rational motivations.

I don't think it's so much not understanding as finding the concept boring. It's very easy to make such characters one-dimensional, although a good "pure evil" character is certainly doable (see the relevant "Trope Talk" from Overly Sarcastic Productions - which I'll also note makes a good point about how giving such a character a complex motivation can ruin them).

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I don't think it's so much not understanding as finding the concept boring.

Which is in keeping with the nature of evil. Evil is boring, once you get past the surface 'come on'.

There's a reason why JRRT never gave us Sauron or Melkor's POV in a scene.

[Varyon]

Man, these AI spam bots just keep getting better; expcarry's post almost looks like an honest contribution to the thread.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Which is in keeping with the nature of evil. Evil is boring, once you get past the surface 'come on'.

There's a reason why JRRT never gave us Sauron or Melkor's POV in a scene.

Fair enough. But certainly you recognize how someone could recognize the idea of Pure Evil, find it boring, and want to add nuance - not because "character does <horrible thing> simply because character is Evil" is somehow an incomprehensible and foreign concept to them, but because they find it trite, cliche, boring, etc, and want to add a little more spice to their story. I recall a DnD campaign I planned (but never ran) that had two villains - a Pure Evil Lich who was setup as the obvious Big Bad trying to raise an army of darkness to conquer the world, and an adventurer-turned-vampire who had control over a continent-spanning drug cartel, said cartel's primary purpose being to sufficiently destabilize the continent that the governments and adventurers would be too busy dealing with the chaos to interrupt - YET AGAIN - the complex ritual he needed to bring back his wife. The Lich was basically just evil for the sake of evil, while the vampire was a former do-gooder (even after he got turned) who wound up needing to do horrible things (the above destabilization of the continent, as well as the harvesting of the souls of multiple innocents to power the ritual; bringing back a vampire from their Final Death ain't easy); guess which one was more interesting (and therefore enjoyable) to write for?

[ericthered]

"Evil" isn't really a motivation, I suppose. Sadism or Hatred comes close, but those have a bit more nuance and characterization. A sadistic character is all eagerness and pleasure about what they do. A character driven by hatred is filled with rage by their target and has more of a goal-driven approach. A character being evil just because doesn't seem to have underlying emotions.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by ericthered

"Evil" isn't really a motivation, I suppose. Sadism or Hatred comes close, but those have a bit more nuance and characterization. A sadistic character is all eagerness and pleasure about what they do. A character driven by hatred is filled with rage by their target and has more of a goal-driven approach. A character being evil just because doesn't seem to have underlying emotions.

I would count "doing evil things because I find them enjoyable" as falling under the umbrella of Pure Evil - indeed, this is pretty much the case for all of the worthwhile "Pure Evil" villains mentioned in the Trope Talk I referenced earlier. A character who's only motivation for doing evil is doing evil isn't much of a character, in my opinion. A compelling character needs some other ultimate reason. Even if their purpose for doing evil is explicitly for spreading evil, there should be something behind that. Maybe they find it entertaining, like Batman's Joker. Maybe they want revenge against a world they feel has wronged them, like Chrno Crusade's Aion. Maybe they simply want power and control, like ReBoot's Megabyte.