Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

A) I couldn't possibly tell you what that is even in modern day in the culture I live in. I have an idea, possibly...

Well, if you don't have any idea what people own or what things are worth and plan to run anyway, you probably don't need to worry about it because your economic handling isn't going to exist at all.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

B) ...which leads into the assumption that if everyone at a specific Status seems to have something, I'll assume someone with a settled lifestyle has it. This isn't for gear that the player wants but that setting assumes the player has. If someone is a soldier, I assume they have appropriate basic armor, a shield, and whatever two weapons soldiers are assumed to have (and the skills to use them). Is that too much money? If so, then it sounds like either the equipment is too expensive (always possible) or that the soldier actually has higher Status/Wealth (always possible).

See, that's the thing. If you have no idea what the numbers are, then you have no idea what Wealth level you need to give people. And then it seems you just pick one out of a hat and "assume" that it works?

To be fair, this shouldn't be your problem if you're using a setting you didn't invent. The person who invented it should have told you what Wealth/Status and stuff people have in a way such that it does, in fact, work.

Of course, that sourcebook doesn't exist for modern Earth, so good luck there.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

C) The simple rule I've heard from PK is that if you want to 'liquidate' all your belongings for money from having a settled lifestyle, you'll get the money you'd receive for not having a settled lifestyle. It doesn't make sense but it solves the main problem of C very neatly.

The presumption that the main problem with having way too much stuff is that you'll liquidate it is a pernicious oversimplification. If you're playing a game where a settled lifestyle makes any sense, you're playing a game where the settled lifestyle stuff is in reach and potentially usable.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I'd personally still give them roughly as good of stuff if those two jobs are the same level, but it would be wildly different, just like how gear for a combatant is very different from a scout, mage, or face.

Like what, exactly? Not all jobs have remotely comparable equipment requirements. A smith needs a workshop with major fixed equipment to work. A scribe needs a pen, a pot of ink, and some paper. Maybe a stool and a board if you're feeling generous. And of course a soldier needs arms and armor. Even if you assume everyone's job is equally applicable to the game, which is wildly unlikely, their job equipment is not the same amount of capital.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

See, that's the thing. If you have no idea what the numbers are, then you have no idea what Wealth level you need to give people. And then it seems you just pick one out of a hat and "assume" that it works?

Considering that over 90% of campaigns I do are in new worlds I personally make, it isn't an issue. I do go through and figure out what jobs fit in what Status/Wealth, then when it inevitably becomes obvious I didn't do enough work, I come up with something for the players that will work right now and go back later to the setting notes and check if it makes sense.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The presumption that the main problem with having way too much stuff is that you'll liquidate it is a pernicious oversimplification. If you're playing a game where a settled lifestyle makes any sense, you're playing a game where the settled lifestyle stuff is in reach and potentially usable.

The oversimplification is only for purposes of money. Considering that it's never come up with my players means I haven't actually had to use it.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Like what, exactly? Not all jobs have remotely comparable equipment requirements. A smith needs a workshop with major fixed equipment to work. A scribe needs a pen, a pot of ink, and some paper. Maybe a stool and a board if you're feeling generous. And of course a soldier needs arms and armor. Even if you assume everyone's job is equally applicable to the game, which is wildly unlikely, their job equipment is not the same amount of capital.

What a given job literally requires for tools and what exists at a given job aren't the same thing. For instance, a merchant needs goods, a place to sell them, and all the bell and whistles for both showing them off and advertising, in addition to all the other stuff that's needed behind the scenes. If the campaign isn't about keeping track of what precisely the merchant has, then basic stuff is just behind the scenes and important stuff the merchant can just 'buy' from themselves. A scribe only needs a handful of things for the act of writing, but if I knew more about the job of being a scribe I'm certain there are all sorts of things available to them. It does come down to specific looking at the job in question. The important part is making sure I don't screw over the players and following the traits on their sheets more than realism. If two players have settled lifestyles at Average Status/Wealth, they will get approximately the same amount of benefits for doing so. If that doesn't make sense, then I likely messed something up by putting jobs at the wrong levels. In fact, I'm not certain I'd put well-equipped soldiers at merely Status 0 and no rank, soldiers at that low rank would have subpar equipment.

[Anthony]

I just assume the settled modifier is not intended to change the actual value of what you get -- its just a simplification and if for some reason it actually matters you should do the math normally.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I just assume the settled modifier is not intended to change the actual value of what you get -- its just a simplification and if for some reason it actually matters you should do the math normally.

From what I've heard (I'm going to go look for the relevant posts after this) the point of the settled modifier is to avoid having to have to cost out everything you have. If you aren't settled, you do, but you also get to decide every single piece.

EDIT: Sorry, just realized I misinterpreted what you said. Yes, I agree. If the GM and players care heavily about the cost of everything they have, then I'd suggest ignoring the settled modifier and price everything as though not settled.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

A scribe only needs a handful of things for the act of writing, but if I knew more about the job of being a scribe I'm certain there are all sorts of things available to them.

I don't know how you can be "certain" of something which in the same sentence you acknowledge you don't know about.

If two players have settled lifestyles at Average Status/Wealth, they will get approximately the same amount of benefits for doing so.

Well, not realistically if their settled portion includes job requirements. As pointed out earlier, different jobs of the same waelth level have different capital requirements, sometimes very different. The problem, I think, is including job gear in settled lifestyle allotments.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Well, not realistically if their settled portion includes job requirements. As pointed out earlier, different jobs of the same waelth level have different capital requirements, sometimes very different. The problem, I think, is including job gear in settled lifestyle allotments.

Really? I wouldn't have thought that was particularly a problem. I mean, it might let certain jobs weasel parts of their 'settled lifestyle' into use as adventuring gear, but they could have just gone no-settled-lifestyle at no penalty so that's not really a problem.

I think the problem is trying to let the settled lifestyle inflate beyond its budget as a way to cover capital-intensive professions being situated at inadequate wealth levels.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I don't know how you can be "certain" of something which in the same sentence you acknowledge you don't know about.

'Certain' in the situation where I know enough to know what I would give.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Well, not realistically if their settled portion includes job requirements.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

The important part is making sure I don't screw over the players and following the traits on their sheets more than realism.

I don't want to let realism get in the way. It should neither be an excuse to give one player more or less free things than another nor punish them just for picking a different job.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=71560

That above has a lot of good notes about Wealth from the line editors, but I'd like to focus on one;

Originally Posted by Kromm

Note that I've said a lot so far without mentioning starting money at all. That's because starting money is a small part of what Wealth is about. The GM might even give away equipment to go with skills and background story elements – the thief gets lockpicks, a grapnel, a few daggers, etc. for free; the knight starts with armor and a sword; and so on. I've done this and been in campaigns where it was done. It changes very little. Especially in a game focused on mercenaries or dungeon delvers, the first big score will render differences in starting cash largely irrelevant anyway.

Starting money and gear being a little different between PCs won't matter in the long run if they are all the same Status/Wealth levels. I've done the same as Kromm even in non-settled games.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I think the problem is trying to let the settled lifestyle inflate beyond its budget as a way to cover capital-intensive professions being situated at inadequate wealth levels.

The usual real-world solution for capital-intensive professions is debt. Which means you can have a lot of stuff with relatively low net worth.

[Kale]

I was just thinking that 'settled lifestyle' gear would be really important playing a pre-post-apocalyptic game. You could have the PCs describe normal people with jobs and homes and gear, then throw the start of a zombie plague or the like at them. All the sudden the old junker car in the garage becomes really important.

Otherwise, if the PCs are going out as adventurers (aka murder hobos) I don't worry about equipment a whole lot as that isn't what the story is about necessarily. Sure you want your PCs to work to get better gear but the gear is just the reward at the end of the quest. In general if a PC wants something really fancy I get them to buy it as Signature Gear and discourage players from taking blanket high wealth levels unless their character's backstory would require it.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The usual real-world solution for capital-intensive professions is debt. Which means you can have a lot of stuff with relatively low net worth.

That's going to depend heavily on whether you're in a society where that kind of borrowing is available...