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Old 01-05-2015, 04:50 PM   #1
Erling
 
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Default Aiming at fully hidden targets

1) If I want to shoot the guy who took full cover, what will be the modifier: -10 (B408) or -6 (B394, "cannot see his foe, but can
see his other surroundings")?

I'd say it depends on the nature of cover. If it's a very long wall, the shooter is effectively "blind": -10. If it's a car, the shooter cannot see his foe, but he can see the objects which surround the target, and he knows the general location of the foe: -6.

2) Aiming can't provide any benefit while shooting blind (B389). Can it be of use in other cases mentioned at B394 (Visibility)?

Possibly it depends on how the GM handles the previous question: kinda Aming isn't possible if the shooter is effectively blind (-10 modifier), but it is possible if the shooter can see other surroundings (-6 modifier).

On the other hand, general task of hitting someone fully hidden behind the obstacle can be divided into "hit the obstacle" task and "hit the guy through the obstacle" task. First one is still affected by distance modifiers, so I'd allow Aiming to mitigate these modifiers if the shooter has succeeded in his Hearing roll (he knows the general direction of the attack, so he can use his sights to aim at that particular section of the wall).
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Old 01-05-2015, 08:58 PM   #2
Bramble Thorn
 
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Default Re: Aiming at fully hidden targets

You can aim at the spot where you think the target is. It that case a skill roll hits the target if the target is in fact there

These would be at no skill penalty for visibility, but the target has many more positions to be behind a wall than in a car.

This is a good use of skills like tactics, psychology, !detective and whatnot and powers like Intuition, super luck, etc.
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Old 01-05-2015, 09:03 PM   #3
Crakkerjakk
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Default Re: Aiming at fully hidden targets

Yeah, if someone is totally behind cover, I think it's probably best mechanically modeled as "shooting at the bit of cover you think they're behind."

Then maybe a 9 or less roll (kind of like shooting through someone's hex) plus a random hit location roll, if you're using them?

If the rules say you can't get an aiming bonus because someone's behind the corner of the wall a hundred yards away, and thus can't even hit the wall, that's obviously dumb. So choose a different way to look at it, IMO.
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Old 01-06-2015, 09:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: Aiming at fully hidden targets

As a quick, dirty, one-roll rule, I'd be fine with letting the -10 for shooting "blind" at someone completely behind cover stack with bonuses for aiming, bracing, etc. If the roll succeeds, the weapon hits the cover protecting the target, and may harm him if it penetrates. If it fails by 10 or less, it still hits the cover but not in the right place. Failure by 11+ somehow misses the cover completely.

For instance, if you know someone is behind a corner 100 yards away, you can Aim your Acc 6+3 sniper rifle at him for +9 for Acc, +1 for bracing, +2 for extra Aim, and +1 for All-Out Attack (Determined). This gives +13, and then there's -10 for range and another -10 for shooting blind, for a net -7. If your skill is 12, you hit the wall protecting your target on 3-5, some other part of the wall on 6-15, and air or ground on 16+. Harming your target on that roll of 3-5 requires penetrating cover DR, rolling randomly for hit location, and then dealing with any personal DR on that body part.

If you can see any part of the target, you can just shoot at him with much smaller penalties . . . see Cover, pp. B407-408.

This also assumes you have some idea of where your target is. You can't see him, but you have a pretty good idea of where he's standing. If you don't, my one-roll hack won't work believably. Then it's probably best for the GM to use random rolls or to roll out a map and ask you to pick a hex to shoot at.
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Old 01-06-2015, 09:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: Aiming at fully hidden targets

Would it be appropriate to apply a Tactics roll (especially if maps weren't being used)?
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Old 01-06-2015, 11:44 AM   #6
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Aiming at fully hidden targets

Monty Python produced a training film on the topic: How Not to Be Seen
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Old 01-06-2015, 01:51 PM   #7
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Default Re: Aiming at fully hidden targets

I think the size of the cover needs to be factored in somehow. Curling into a ball and hiding in a large box should be -10 to hit.

Perhaps the area of negative space (that which isn't occupied by the target) ramps up the penalty from -0 (cutout matching the target's silhouette) to -10 (more negative space than occupied space).
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Old 01-06-2015, 06:47 PM   #8
Erling
 
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Default Re: Aiming at fully hidden targets

Thanks for the answers, everyone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
As a quick, dirty, one-roll rule, I'd be fine with letting the -10 for shooting "blind" at someone completely behind cover stack with bonuses for aiming, bracing, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMason View Post
I think the size of the cover needs to be factored in somehow. Curling into a ball and hiding in a large box should be -10 to hit.

Perhaps the area of negative space (that which isn't occupied by the target) ramps up the penalty from -0 (cutout matching the target's silhouette) to -10 (more negative space than occupied space).
Great! Kromm's rule is very easy to handle, and it provides good playability. I also believe that taking obstacle's size into account is a good addition to a quick, dirty rule (thus making it less dirty). Indeed, shooting a human fully hidden behind a trash can shouldn't be as difficult as shooting a human fully hidden behind whole section of the opaque fence or wall. Combining these two approaches looks very good for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
Yeah, if someone is totally behind cover, I think it's probably best mechanically modeled as "shooting at the bit of cover you think they're behind."

Then maybe a 9 or less roll (kind of like shooting through someone's hex) plus a random hit location roll, if you're using them?

If the rules say you can't get an aiming bonus because someone's behind the corner of the wall a hundred yards away, and thus can't even hit the wall, that's obviously dumb. So choose a different way to look at it, IMO.
That's an unexpected alternative, but I really really like it. Sure, shooting the obstacle is a matter of skill (with all appropriate modifiers, including Aim, but not -6 or -10 for shooting hidden target, since obstacle isn't hidden), but hitting the foe is a matter of chance. I would also modify that 9 skill appropriate to obstacle's size, foe's size, foe's posture and to number of bullets which hit the obstacle during single attack.

Last edited by Erling; 01-06-2015 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 01-06-2015, 07:52 PM   #9
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Default Re: Aiming at fully hidden targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
That's an unexpected alternative, but I really really like it. Sure, shooting the obstacle is a matter of skill (with all appropriate modifiers, including Aim, but not -6 or -10 for shooting hidden target, since obstacle isn't hidden), but hitting the foe is a matter of chance. I would also modify that 9 skill appropriate to obstacle's size, foe's size, foe's posture and to number of bullets which hit the obstacle during single attack.
Yeah, sure. Establish a "base probability" for hitting a SM+0 person standing behind a regular wall, then add modifiers plus or minus for differences in SM between the target and cover (halfwall and ogre vs pixie and giant rock).

I think you're right as far as using the rounds that hit cover to modify it as well. Then maybe use the MoS on the "hitting guy behind cover" roll and the weapons Rcl to figure out how many rounds get through the cover AND randomly hit the guy, so it's not always just one round.
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