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Old 11-25-2022, 07:09 AM   #11
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Immunity to Break Weapon

The combined errata would then be:

ITL 18: The Immunity to Drop Weapon enchantment protects everything the user is carrying against the spell effect, but only the enchanted item itself against mundane clumsiness and disarming attacks.

ITL 23: A Staff II or higher level is itself protected against Drop and Break weapon effects, but does not provide general immunity to the wielder.

ITL 24: As there is no Break Weapon enchantment there is no general Immunity to Break Weapon enchantment that covers the whole figure, but individual items are rendered immune to this spell (and also against accidental breakage) through Staff II or Weapon/Armor Enchantment.

ITL 28: Weapon/Armor Enchantment provides Immunity to Break Weapon to the enchanted item itself, but it does not provide general immunity to the wielder. Immunity to Drop Weapon can be added separately via Lesser Magic Item Creation, using the same procedures as the Drop Weapon enchantment.
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Old 11-27-2022, 07:03 PM   #12
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Immunity to Break Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
The combined errata would then be:

ITL 18: The Immunity to Drop Weapon enchantment protects everything the user is carrying against the spell effect, but only the enchanted item itself against mundane clumsiness and disarming attacks.
That just sounds like a really, really odd rule. I sure won't split those hairs.
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Old 12-06-2022, 10:22 PM   #13
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Immunity to Break Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by warhorse11h View Post
The Spell reference Pages in the Wizard game contain an answer to this question on page 4 under the description for Break Weapon, the IQ 12 spell. In the description, the rules state that all magic weapons are immune to Break Weapon by their very nature as magic weapons.
This text also appears in the original Wizard as well in the description of the Break Weapon spell.
I think that the above was the intended rule for ITL, but it was garbled in translation in the original text and not corrected in Legacy. Or at least that will work well enough for me. It's simple to implement it as well. Magic weapons are simply immune to the spell Break Weapon.
Well, basic Wizard says that.

ITL's version says, Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with Immunity (q.v.) against this spell. which I wouldn't say is garbled in ITL or Advanced Wizard. It says almost the same thing as basic Wizard, except requiring a specific enchantment to make it so. The fact that there's no cost listing provided is the only hitch, but that's easily fixed. Of course, just like I can say its cost is 1500, you could say your wizards have a version that costs 0. Or, just say what you wrote - it's your campaign.
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Old 12-20-2022, 04:04 PM   #14
warhorse11h
 
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Default Re: Immunity to Break Weapon

RAW indicate that if a magic item does not exist for a particular thrown spell, then an immunity to said spell is not possible. This is found on pg 156, in the section on Enchanting Objects with Immunity Spells. In the existing rules there is no entry to describe a Break Weapon magic item. By RAW it is not possible to create a magic item with an immunity to Break Weapon spells or results.

At least two distinct rules, one a talent, Master Armourer, and a second a spell, Break Weapon, both indicate the existence of said Break Weapon Immunity.

The Break Weapon spell contains a line of text that is capable of more than one interpretation. "Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with Immunity (q.v.) against this spell." This text could simply be a reference to a spell effect to be described elsewhere and nothing more, in which case it does nothing to provide a solution. I submit it could also be stating that enchanted swords, etc are, by virtue of their enchantment are granted immunity to break weapons as a side effect.

I believe the latter is what the text intended to say. Note that if that is the true meaning of the text then there is no need for a house rule or house rules and RAW are valid and allow for weapons to be immune to break weapons effects.

Of course, none of the above prevents anyone from seeking a different solution, to include house rules, if they so choose.
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Old 12-21-2022, 06:16 AM   #15
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Immunity to Break Weapon

tldr:
It looks like "Break Weapons Immunity spell" was accidentally omitted from ITL despite multiple references to it and should be added back in, even though there is no "Break Weapons" enchantment itself.


It looks like ITL is missing something. First, I will list references to breaking weapons. The first one has not yet been mentioned in this thread and is specifically about it. All quotes from ITL Legacy. The first quote clearly states that a magic sword is not protected from breaking by virtual of being enchanted.

ITL 167 "Destruction of Magic Items" section:
"Magic items may be destroyed in a number of ways.
Anything which breaks or shatters immediately loses its
magic powers; a broken magic sword is no longer enchanted,
even if it is remade. An object becomes no less fragile by
virtue of the spells on it.
"

ITL 167 also goes on to describe how lightning spell may destroy magic items and "immunity to lightning (q.v.)" would help. This is relevant only in that it is another example of immunity, but not immunity to Break Weapons spell.

ITL 167 from previous section on removing unwanted magic items:
"when the item is broken, the magic will leave it. A magic Rope could
be cut off, a weapon could be struck against the wall until it breaks, and so on."

ITL 156 "Enchanting Objects with Immunity Spells" section.
Explains how to create immunity to magic spells. It also specifically states, "If there is no magic item to produce an effect, no item can be made to give immunity." This is the part that seems to be in conflict with other quotes.

ITL 150 "Break Weapons" spell is not on the Magic Item Creation Table. This combined with ITL 156 seems to imply that there cannot be immunity to Break Weapons spell. But you will see following quote state to opposite.

ITL 24 "Break Weapon" spell:
"Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with Immunity (q.v.) against this spell. Such a weapon also will not break on a roll of 18, though it may be broken deliberately if someone wants to do so."
This quote has two keep points regarding Break Weapon spell immunity. The q.v. tells the reader to look up the section on spell Immunity. This means it is specifically stating there can be a Break Weapon Immunity spell. This is in direct conflict with the quote from ITL 150. Not only does it state there can be a Break Weapons Immunity spell, but the second bold explains that such an immunity would also protect against a 18 roll.

ITL 42 "Master Armourer" talent:
"On a 4-die roll against IQ, they will recognize the Weapon/Armor Enchantment spells, immunity to Drop and Break Weapon, and the ability to “flame.”"
Here again we have a Break Weapons immunity enchantment. Again in conflict with ITL 150.

ITL 123 "Fine Weapons" section:
"A finely made weapon which does extra damage is also less likely to break, because of its superior metal. When a Break Weapon spell is used, or a “break” result rolled on the dice, roll one die."
This shows there is some mundane protection against the Break Weapons spell and a roll of 18.


Note weapons may be broken:
- Break Weapon spell
- a roll of 18 during use
- deliberate destruction, say by a smith or thrown in a volcano, etc
It is important to keep in mind which is being referred to when immunity or breaking is mentioned as it is not always all three.


Conclusion:
The only conclusion that makes sense is that "Break Weapons Immunity spell" was accidentally omitted from ITL despite multiple references to it and should be added back in, even though there is no "Break Weapons" enchantment itself. This would have to be the exception to the page 150 rule.
Just like there is a "Destroy Illusion" magic item enchantment without there being a "Destroy Illusion" spell, there should be a "Break Weapons Immunity" magic item enchantment.

I would suggest the following addition to the table on ITL 150:
Magic Item (minor/lesser enchantment): Break Weapon Immunity
Price: $3000
Notes: none
Weeks: 3
ST/Day: 25
Cost/week: 515
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Old 12-21-2022, 07:50 AM   #16
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Immunity to Break Weapon

Note that the reference is usually to a singular "immunity to Drop and Break Weapon" enchantment.

I'd be happy with errata that either put this as a side effect of the Immunity to Drop Weapon enchantment or under Weapon/Armor enchantment and would favor the later as being closer to Wizard and fitting in with the published adventures.
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Old 12-21-2022, 12:25 PM   #17
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Immunity to Break Weapon

Henry, I don't see that as a singular reference to one spell immunity that prevents both dropping and breaking of weapons. The spell names are "Drop Weapon" and "Break Weapon"; both singular. The ITL 42 reference is to both the spells by spell names, thus the singular sounding statement.
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Old 12-21-2022, 05:52 PM   #18
warhorse11h
 
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Default Re: Immunity to Break Weapon

My remarks are contained within brackets [].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
tldr:

ITL 24 "Break Weapon" spell:
"Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with Immunity (q.v.) against this spell. Such a weapon also will not break on a roll of 18, though it may be broken deliberately if someone wants to do so."
This quote has two keep points regarding Break Weapon spell immunity. The q.v. tells the reader to look up the section on spell Immunity. This means it is specifically stating there can be a Break Weapon Immunity spell. This is in direct conflict with the quote from ITL 150. Not only does it state there can be a Break Weapons Immunity spell, but the second bold explains that such an immunity would also protect against a 18 roll.

[That is your interpretation of a vaguely crafted statement that is capable of being interpreted in multiple ways. It can mean exactly what you believe it does but it can also be read to imply that a magic weapon is crafted with the immunity to Break Weapon as part of enchanting it.]

ITL 42 "Master Armourer" talent:
"On a 4-die roll against IQ, they will recognize the Weapon/Armor Enchantment spells, immunity to Drop and Break Weapon, and the ability to “flame.”"
Here again we have a Break Weapons immunity enchantment. Again in conflict with ITL 150.

ITL 123 "Fine Weapons" section:
"A finely made weapon which does extra damage is also less likely to break, because of its superior metal. When a Break Weapon spell is used, or a “break” result rolled on the dice, roll one die."
This shows there is some mundane protection against the Break Weapons spell and a roll of 18.

Note weapons may be broken:
- Break Weapon spell
- a roll of 18 during use
- deliberate destruction, say by a smith or thrown in a volcano, etc
It is important to keep in mind which is being referred to when immunity or breaking is mentioned as it is not always all three.


Conclusion:
The only conclusion that makes sense is that "Break Weapons Immunity spell" was accidentally omitted from ITL despite multiple references to it and should be added back in, even though there is no "Break Weapons" enchantment itself. This would have to be the exception to the page 150 rule.
Just like there is a "Destroy Illusion" magic item enchantment without there being a "Destroy Illusion" spell, there should be a "Break Weapons Immunity" magic item enchantment.

[While not the only conclusion that makes sense, your conclusion would be acceptable, but it requires additional rules to be valid. The only conclusion that exists within the existing framework, without adding any house rules or creating errata is that a magic weapon is made with the Break Weapon effect as a serendipitous side effect of enchanting the weapon. Much like enchanting your staff to have a mana capability provides it with the immunity to Break Weapon and separately to Drop Weapon.]

[There is an IQ 11 spell to generate a 1 Hex Illusion, which the Destroy Illusion magic item can destroy. The Illusion spell is an effect and Destroy Illusion counters it. That is not an immunity. The rule requiring a effect to have an immunity is contained in the section on immunities and applicable only to that limited case.]

I would suggest the following addition to the table on ITL 150:
Magic Item (minor/lesser enchantment): Break Weapon Immunity
Price: $3000
Notes: none
Weeks: 3
ST/Day: 25
Cost/week: 515
[There is already a magic item that has immunity to both Drop Weapon and Break Weapon by virtue of it's crafting without the need for a separate immunity enchantment. The ever popular Staff II and beyond. I realize it is not automatically a weapon, but can be a dagger or sword or possibly a spear or a 6 ft long club.]

Last edited by warhorse11h; 12-21-2022 at 06:56 PM. Reason: striking unnecessarily confrontational statement
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Old 12-21-2022, 07:13 PM   #19
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Immunity to Break Weapon

Warhorse,
You wrote the following response in brackets to my post below:

ITL 24 "Break Weapon" spell:
"Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with Immunity (q.v.) against this spell. Such a weapon also will not break on a roll of 18, though it may be broken deliberately if someone wants to do so."
This quote has two keep points regarding Break Weapon spell immunity. The q.v. tells the reader to look up the section on spell Immunity. This means it is specifically stating there can be a Break Weapon Immunity spell. This is in direct conflict with the quote from ITL 150. Not only does it state there can be a Break Weapons Immunity spell, but the second bold explains that such an immunity would also protect against a 18 roll.

[That is your interpretation of a vaguely crafted statement that is capable of being interpreted in multiple ways. It can mean exactly what you believe it does but it can also be read to imply that a magic weapon is crafted with the immunity to Break Weapon as part of enchanting it.]

Warhorse,
What are your other interpretations? I don't see this section as vaguely crafted. It is quit clear.

How else can you interpret the "Break Weapon" spell's description that states "Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with immunity (q.v.) against this spell. " I can only see this line saying "this spell" is the Break Weapon spell as it is literally stating that.

And "Immunity (q.v.)" means to point to the immunity section (pg 156). The q.v. tells you that it is a reference to a different section and in this case the Immunity section.

As for those that say all magical weapon unbreakable, see pg 167 as it clearly states they are just as fragile as before.

The only think I find inconsistent in ITL on this is that it states (more than once) that their is a Break Weapon spell Immunity but then failed to list it in the list of enchantments.
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Old 12-21-2022, 08:39 PM   #20
warhorse11h
 
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Default Re: Immunity to Break Weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
Warhorse,
You wrote the following response in brackets to my post below:

ITL 24 "Break Weapon" spell:
"Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with Immunity (q.v.) against this spell. Such a weapon also will not break on a roll of 18, though it may be broken deliberately if someone wants to do so."
This quote has two keep points regarding Break Weapon spell immunity. The q.v. tells the reader to look up the section on spell Immunity. This means it is specifically stating there can be a Break Weapon Immunity spell. This is in direct conflict with the quote from ITL 150. Not only does it state there can be a Break Weapons Immunity spell, but the second bold explains that such an immunity would also protect against a 18 roll.

[That is your interpretation of a vaguely crafted statement that is capable of being interpreted in multiple ways. It can mean exactly what you believe it does but it can also be read to imply that a magic weapon is crafted with the immunity to Break Weapon as part of enchanting it.]

Warhorse,
What are your other interpretations? I don't see this section as vaguely crafted. It is quit clear.

How else can you interpret the "Break Weapon" spell's description that states "Does not work on enchanted swords, shields, etc., constructed with immunity (q.v.) against this spell. " I can only see this line saying "this spell" is the Break Weapon spell as it is literally stating that.

And "Immunity (q.v.)" means to point to the immunity section (pg 156). The q.v. tells you that it is a reference to a different section and in this case the Immunity section.

As for those that say all magical weapon unbreakable, see pg 167 as it clearly states they are just as fragile as before.

The only think I find inconsistent in ITL on this is that it states (more than once) that their is a Break Weapon spell Immunity but then failed to list it in the list of enchantments.
As I stated previously, that sentence can also be interpreted to mean that a weapon that has been enchanted is by its nature given immunity to Break
Weapons. Immunity to Break Weapons does not make the weapon unbreakable. It only means it can't be broken by an 18 or the Break Weapon spell. Being magically protected by that immunity does not make them more or less fragile. It only grants them that level of protection as listed in the Break Weapon spell.

You do what you wish, I'll do what I wish and those reading these threads can follow whatever course they wish. But I am through with this conversation.
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