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Old 08-29-2012, 06:04 PM   #1
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Grand-guards

I'm surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of grand-guards on the forums given the obvious appeal of two layers of rigid armour.

The Jousting Plate section is phrased in terms of how to arrive at jousting plate which means that it's kind of vague on the question I suspect most players want answered; "How far can I go while before it becomes jousting plate." This probably means that jousting plate is an "I know it when I see it" thing but can you use a grand-guard without it qualifying as jousting plate?

The grand-guard can only layered on plate however it doesn't specify that the grand-guard has to be plate, only rigid. A motivation is difficult to find but could other rigid armours (for example, jousting mail.) be used as grand-guards? Similarly is there a way to layer rigid armours that aren't plate?

Should a grand-guard impact donning time?

Outside of Low-Tech the term appears to refer to a specific piece of armour. What areas historically would use the term of art grand-guard?
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:24 PM   #2
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
I'm surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of grand-guards on the forums given the obvious appeal of two layers of rigid armour.
What appeal is that? If you're using grand-guards you're using low-tech, and the heavy plate rules will usually do the job.
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:35 PM   #3
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
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What appeal is that? If you're using grand-guards you're using low-tech, and the heavy plate rules will usually do the job.
Well it's not really about just doing the job. Having the highest possible DR is appealing. Besides that, what "the job" is varies. If you never need more than 11 DR then sure the heavy plate rules work. If you want more then you can get better DR per pound with layering at the cost of layering and some other small disadvantages.

I'm not really sure how to explain the appeal of really high DR, or being able to break the only one rigid armour rule though. It seems obvious to me anyway.
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:21 PM   #4
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Well it's not really about just doing the job. Having the highest possible DR is appealing. Besides that, what "the job" is varies. If you never need more than 11 DR then sure the heavy plate rules work. If you want more then you can get better DR per pound with layering at the cost of layering and some other small disadvantages.
Er, what math are you using here? I don't see any way that the benefits of a grad-guard would increase with the total DR desired.

By using a grand-guard, you get to have two layers of plate and claim the +1 'bonus' DR twice (through the lens the heavy plate rules, normal-quality light plate is two levels of heaviness plus 1 DR that weighs and costs nothing.) So you could for instance claim DR6 for two layers of light plate for $2100 and 16 pounds instead of $2500 and 20 for medium plate. But any additional DR after that will come at the usual $500 and 5 pounds per point, whichever plate you add it to.

You do get the option of claiming the hardened steel upgrade separately for each plate, but that's quite expensive and still returns to the aforementioned progression (or worse monetarily) past 8 DR.
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:05 PM   #5
Sindri
 
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Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Er, what math are you using here? I don't see any way that the benefits of a grad-guard would increase with the total DR desired.

By using a grand-guard, you get to have two layers of plate and claim the +1 'bonus' DR twice (through the lens the heavy plate rules, normal-quality light plate is two levels of heaviness plus 1 DR that weighs and costs nothing.) So you could for instance claim DR6 for two layers of light plate for $2100 and 16 pounds instead of $2500 and 20 for medium plate. But any additional DR after that will come at the usual $500 and 5 pounds per point, whichever plate you add it to.

You do get the option of claiming the hardened steel upgrade separately for each plate, but that's quite expensive and still returns to the aforementioned progression (or worse monetarily) past 8 DR.
I started with heavy plate. Obviously we add duplex plate because that's what you do. Now a grand-guard weighs twice as much so we use the heavy plate option for +2 DR. that's DR 12 vs DR 20. So by the time you can double the weight you should go ahead and use a grand-guard if the layering penalty is acceptable. You can still get +1 DR before hitting the double weight of a grand-guard. For simplicity I was strictly dealing with heavy plate with the heavy plate option versus heavy plate with a heavy plate grand-guard. Of course you can still get more DR for that weight with a light plate grand-guard.

The flaw in the above is obvious. I haven't messed with low-tech armour in a while so I forgot that plate, medium and plate, heavy don't exist and are instead applications of the Heavy Plate option to plate, light.

Even with that in mind a grand-guard is more efficient in terms of weight, allows you to use duplex plate twice, and can get over the DR 14 limit. This is as it should be considering the layering penalty.

The question of "Is a grand-guard worth it" really isn't the point of the thread though.
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:44 PM   #6
gjc8
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Grand-guards

I think using the Heavy Plate rule from the box on page 109, you're supposed to use the lightest version of the armor available.

Plate, Light has a base cost and weight of $1000 and 8 lbs. So for each +1 to DR of plate, you add $500 and 4 lbs.
Adding 3 DR adds $1500 and 12 lbs, so DR 6 plate is $2500 and 20 lbs, which is exactly the same as Plate, Medium from the table. Adding 6 DR adds $3000 and 24 lbs, so DR 9 plate is $4000 and 32 lbs, exactly matching Plate, Heavy from the table. Whereas if you used the the Heavy Plate rule to add 3 DR to Plate, Medium, you'd be adding 30 lbs and $3750, making DR 9 plate $5250 and 50 lbs, which doesn't match the table.

It's the same for the other armors eligible for the Heavy Plate rule. Segmented Plate, Light with +1 DR, +50% cost and weight is exactly Segmented Plate, Medium and Segmented Plate, Light with +2 DR, +100% cost and weight is exactly Segmented Plate, Heavy. Brigandine, Light with +2 DR, +100 cost and weight is exactly Brigandine, Medium.

Therefore, going above DR 9 with Plate should still be $500 and 4 lbs per +1 DR. So DR 11 (before Hardened Steel) has a base weight of 40 lbs, not 64.

Layering Plate, Heavy with Plate, Heavy (without hardened steel/duplex plate): DR 18, $8000, 64 lbs (for the Chest). Using the Heavy Plate rule, starting with Plate, Light: DR 17, same cost and weight, or DR 18, $8500, 68 lbs. Edit: except you can't make that, because of the DR 14 limit. So if you really need DR 18 at TL 4, you have no choice but to eat the layered armor penalty. But DR 14 plate should be significantly lighter and cheaper than two layers of Plate, Heavy, and the same weight as DR 15 Plate, Heavy layered with Plate, Medium.

If you make both layers Hardened Steel or Duplex Plate, the difference widens by another point of DR at the same cost and weight.

Last edited by gjc8; 08-29-2012 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:51 PM   #7
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
The question of "Is a grand-guard worth it" really isn't the point of the thread though.
Well, as far as that, there's not really anything to say. The rule isn't there. (And the bits of it that are there don't actually make sense. For instance, as written even if there were any reason to label your heavy armor jousting plate, which there isn't, you can avoid the penalty by including extra-heavy boots or something in your garniture and then not actually using them.)
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:26 PM   #8
Ed the Coastie
 
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Default Re: Grand-guards

I must be tired. I saw the title of this thread and for a moment thought that it referred to geriatric sentries.
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:27 PM   #9
Sindri
 
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Default Re: Grand-guards

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Originally Posted by gjc8 View Post
I think using the Heavy Plate rule from the box on page 109, you're supposed to use the lightest version of the armor available
Yeah I momentarily forgot. I pointed this out above.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Well, as far as that, there's not really anything to say. The rule isn't there. (And the bits of it that are there don't actually make sense. For instance, as written even if there were any reason to label your heavy armor jousting plate, which there isn't, you can avoid the penalty by including extra-heavy boots or something in your garniture and then not actually using them.)
I did ask about things other than the jousting plate thing. For that though I recognize that people can't give me anything based on rules. From a realism basis though I'm not sure when to assess the jousting plate penalties. I mean I find it hard to understand how putting another plate on your left arm or whatever will suddenly give you -1 to all DX skills and double the change posture maneuvers necessary for anything. Jousting plate's penalties clearly aren't based on encumbrance, since then it would be based on encumbrance. (Although I'm really unsure what exactly they are based on since you can roll around in three layers of straw without additional penalties and weight and thickness seem like the only choices.) Perhaps I could take inspiration from the layered armour rules so the penalties would only apply if the areas armour impacted it.
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:54 PM   #10
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Grand-guards

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IJousting plate's penalties clearly aren't based on encumbrance, since then it would be based on encumbrance. (Although I'm really unsure what exactly they are based on since you can roll around in three layers of straw without additional penalties and weight and thickness seem like the only choices.)
Limited joint flexibility?

Also, you can't wear even two layers of straw unless you come up with some grand-guard deal. It's rigid.
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