08-29-2012, 06:04 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Grand-guards
I'm surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of grand-guards on the forums given the obvious appeal of two layers of rigid armour.
The Jousting Plate section is phrased in terms of how to arrive at jousting plate which means that it's kind of vague on the question I suspect most players want answered; "How far can I go while before it becomes jousting plate." This probably means that jousting plate is an "I know it when I see it" thing but can you use a grand-guard without it qualifying as jousting plate? The grand-guard can only layered on plate however it doesn't specify that the grand-guard has to be plate, only rigid. A motivation is difficult to find but could other rigid armours (for example, jousting mail.) be used as grand-guards? Similarly is there a way to layer rigid armours that aren't plate? Should a grand-guard impact donning time? Outside of Low-Tech the term appears to refer to a specific piece of armour. What areas historically would use the term of art grand-guard? |
08-29-2012, 06:24 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Grand-guards
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08-29-2012, 06:35 PM | #3 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Re: Grand-guards
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I'm not really sure how to explain the appeal of really high DR, or being able to break the only one rigid armour rule though. It seems obvious to me anyway. |
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08-29-2012, 08:21 PM | #4 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Grand-guards
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By using a grand-guard, you get to have two layers of plate and claim the +1 'bonus' DR twice (through the lens the heavy plate rules, normal-quality light plate is two levels of heaviness plus 1 DR that weighs and costs nothing.) So you could for instance claim DR6 for two layers of light plate for $2100 and 16 pounds instead of $2500 and 20 for medium plate. But any additional DR after that will come at the usual $500 and 5 pounds per point, whichever plate you add it to. You do get the option of claiming the hardened steel upgrade separately for each plate, but that's quite expensive and still returns to the aforementioned progression (or worse monetarily) past 8 DR.
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
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08-29-2012, 09:05 PM | #5 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Re: Grand-guards
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The flaw in the above is obvious. I haven't messed with low-tech armour in a while so I forgot that plate, medium and plate, heavy don't exist and are instead applications of the Heavy Plate option to plate, light. Even with that in mind a grand-guard is more efficient in terms of weight, allows you to use duplex plate twice, and can get over the DR 14 limit. This is as it should be considering the layering penalty. The question of "Is a grand-guard worth it" really isn't the point of the thread though. |
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08-29-2012, 09:44 PM | #6 |
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Re: Grand-guards
I think using the Heavy Plate rule from the box on page 109, you're supposed to use the lightest version of the armor available.
Plate, Light has a base cost and weight of $1000 and 8 lbs. So for each +1 to DR of plate, you add $500 and 4 lbs. Adding 3 DR adds $1500 and 12 lbs, so DR 6 plate is $2500 and 20 lbs, which is exactly the same as Plate, Medium from the table. Adding 6 DR adds $3000 and 24 lbs, so DR 9 plate is $4000 and 32 lbs, exactly matching Plate, Heavy from the table. Whereas if you used the the Heavy Plate rule to add 3 DR to Plate, Medium, you'd be adding 30 lbs and $3750, making DR 9 plate $5250 and 50 lbs, which doesn't match the table. It's the same for the other armors eligible for the Heavy Plate rule. Segmented Plate, Light with +1 DR, +50% cost and weight is exactly Segmented Plate, Medium and Segmented Plate, Light with +2 DR, +100% cost and weight is exactly Segmented Plate, Heavy. Brigandine, Light with +2 DR, +100 cost and weight is exactly Brigandine, Medium. Therefore, going above DR 9 with Plate should still be $500 and 4 lbs per +1 DR. So DR 11 (before Hardened Steel) has a base weight of 40 lbs, not 64. Layering Plate, Heavy with Plate, Heavy (without hardened steel/duplex plate): DR 18, $8000, 64 lbs (for the Chest). Using the Heavy Plate rule, starting with Plate, Light: DR 17, same cost and weight, or DR 18, $8500, 68 lbs. Edit: except you can't make that, because of the DR 14 limit. So if you really need DR 18 at TL 4, you have no choice but to eat the layered armor penalty. But DR 14 plate should be significantly lighter and cheaper than two layers of Plate, Heavy, and the same weight as DR 15 Plate, Heavy layered with Plate, Medium. If you make both layers Hardened Steel or Duplex Plate, the difference widens by another point of DR at the same cost and weight. Last edited by gjc8; 08-29-2012 at 09:52 PM. |
08-29-2012, 09:51 PM | #7 |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Grand-guards
Well, as far as that, there's not really anything to say. The rule isn't there. (And the bits of it that are there don't actually make sense. For instance, as written even if there were any reason to label your heavy armor jousting plate, which there isn't, you can avoid the penalty by including extra-heavy boots or something in your garniture and then not actually using them.)
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
08-29-2012, 10:26 PM | #8 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Sierra Vista, Arizona
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Re: Grand-guards
I must be tired. I saw the title of this thread and for a moment thought that it referred to geriatric sentries.
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08-29-2012, 10:27 PM | #9 | ||
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Re: Grand-guards
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08-29-2012, 10:54 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Grand-guards
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Also, you can't wear even two layers of straw unless you come up with some grand-guard deal. It's rigid.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
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Tags |
armor, armour, low-tech, low-tech armor, low-tech companion 2 |
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