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Old 10-02-2021, 07:39 AM   #11
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Astral Projection

What happens to an astral body trapped inside a pentagram when the spell expires?
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Old 10-02-2021, 09:10 AM   #12
Shaira
 
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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Good question, Sarah! While there is nothing I'm aware of that explicitly rules out communicating on the Astral Plane, I'd seriously consider requiring the use of Telepathy. As others have mentioned, Astral Projection is extremely powerful, so throwing a hurdle in the way of using it as a wizardly Zoom meeting on top of that could be a good idea.
I agree absolutely! I was kinda hoping for a "canon" answer - again, just trying to figure out how Cidri works, and Astral Projection Zoom meetings would certainly heavily influence communications!

I think I'm going to go for the astral plane being some kind of crazily disorienting environment, dazzling, flashing, the sound of crashing drums, cymbals, etc, with attacks and interference by astral beings a constant danger, so you keep quiet and stealthy to avoid combat. If a fellow Astral Traveller attacks you, then the resulting din risks attracting a lot of attention. I think Telepathy would work for communication, and I might allow some kind of IQ roll to communicate something in that mad clashy place.

But I agree that allowing straightforward Astral Chats could be a step too far - even with IQ15 Wizards being relatively rare, every ducal court would surely have an open channel to every other in such a way.

It's fascinating trying to work out the "game world" reality of Cidri like this, but sometimes the ambiguity is tricky!

Cheers,

Sarah
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Old 10-02-2021, 01:09 PM   #13
Peter von Kleinsmid
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Default Re: Astral Projection

Yes, figuring out how things work in one's campaign can be very fun and interesting, and the differences between campaigns can be really interesting to discover and explore during play.

I posed the question to Steve, and we both feel the default "canon" situation would be that it would be possible to talk to other astral figures. Of course, you also need to have a way to agree on a time and place to meet someone at a distance.

A GM could of course decide that in their campaign, there are difficulties such as you mention, either due to the nature of the astral plane where their campaign is, or the version of the spell known in your campaign, or whatever.

But even without astral hearing, people could develop a sign language or figure out other ways to communicate. And dukes with court wizards can also arrange for other magical ways to communicate, such as Gates, Long-Distance Telepathy, etc. Whether and what they actually do of course is always up to the GM.

(As a GM, I tend to want to add complications to Astral Projection, as you say.)
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Old 10-05-2021, 01:06 AM   #14
Shaira
 
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Originally Posted by Peter von Kleinsmid View Post
I posed the question to Steve, and we both feel the default "canon" situation would be that it would be possible to talk to other astral figures. Of course, you also need to have a way to agree on a time and place to meet someone at a distance.
Thank you, Peter! That's extremely useful to have a "canon" decision about how Astral Projection works. Yes, GMs can definitely throw up problems to make AP communication non-trivial, but knowing how it works out of the box gives us a great baseline to work from. Thanks again! :) (y)
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Old 02-07-2023, 03:14 PM   #15
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Great thread. I was just about to ask about the following question in a new thread, but I came across this.

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
5/ You would be able to astrally move (walk/fly) from places you had been, into places you had not physically been.
Sadly, only two folks answered and they answered differently.

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Originally Posted by Kieddicus View Post

The spell states you had to have visited the place while not in astral form, so you probably cannot do 4 and 5.

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
5. Yes, walk. I think flight would require magic unless you can naturally fly.
I wonder if we can get some more discussion on this. I'm a bit loath to allow one to walk to previously unseen locations using Astral Projection because it would be a very, very powerful scouting ability. The Fatigue cost is significant, but one could project nearby an unseen area and see what's on the other side of the door, what's in the locked vault (including traps, if he's good at that), walk through rock looking for previously unseen secret areas, scout the entire labyrinth beforehand and so on. Since he can do this from a safe distance, the fatigue cost isn't really all that significant.

Thus, I'm leaning more towards Kiedicuss's answer than to Skarg's. But I'd like to hear from others. (An official clarification would be most welcome.)

I must confess that I was leaning towards Skarg's answer when I was considering NPC usage of Astral Projection, but once a player spoke up about gaining the spell, I somehow reconsidered. In a fairly panicky manner.
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Old 02-08-2023, 08:28 PM   #16
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Default Re: Astral Projection

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I wonder if we can get some more discussion on this. I'm a bit loath to allow one to walk to previously unseen locations using Astral Projection because it would be a very, very powerful scouting ability. The Fatigue cost is significant, but one could project nearby an unseen area and see what's on the other side of the door, what's in the locked vault (including traps, if he's good at that), walk through rock looking for previously unseen secret areas, scout the entire labyrinth beforehand and so on. Since he can do this from a safe distance, the fatigue cost isn't really all that significant.

Thus, I'm leaning more towards Kiedicuss's answer than to Skarg's. But I'd like to hear from others. (An official clarification would be most welcome.)

I must confess that I was leaning towards Skarg's answer when I was considering NPC usage of Astral Projection, but once a player spoke up about gaining the spell, I somehow reconsidered. In a fairly panicky manner.
Assumption 2/ (You can blink to several places while astral as long as you've been there) is, I think, correct, since the wording of the spell is "can observe events in other places [my emphasis] for one hour" not "can observe events in an other place".

3/ (After you arrive somewhere, you can see things, hear people and move about as if you were there, except you can move through all physical objects.) Yes and no. If there were a desk in a room you had visited physically, you could move through its hexes as though it wasnt' there. However, if there were a previously unexplored room beyond a closed door, you could not move through that door as though it wasn't there. Read on for more detail.

My take on Assumption 4 (You could spend an hour exploring a house you had stood outside, or a city where you had once stood on the docks, and you would see what is actually there right now.) is both Yes and No. So long as there is no physical barrier to a previously unexplored area, I don't see why the astral traveller would not be able to move at normal speed to that area. Thus, the astral visitor could walk into a previously unexplored mausoleum that happens to be open, but not one whose door is closed. Similarly, one could walk from the neighborhood you lived in to a part of town you'd never been to, but you could not go inside any building which did not have an unobstructed opening. If you wanted to return to those newly explored areas on a second astral trip, you'd have to start at the beginning, since you had never been to them physically.

Assumption 5 is not substantially different from no. 4, except that you can only fly if you have that ability or spell.

7/ (Would you allow the deck of a ship, or the arms of a lover to be 'places' you could astrally project to?) I agree with Kiedicus and Skarg that "place" is meant to signify a geographic location.
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Old 02-08-2023, 08:58 PM   #17
phiwum
 
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Interesting way to carve things, Shostak.

So, if you'd seen a cave mouth previously, though you'd never been inside, you could visit it again and enter the cave. Unless, say, someone had laid branches across the mouth of the cave to cover the entrance. Or perhaps a flimsy curtain?

But it's a bit ad hoc, I think, to say that I could move through a desk (thereby occupying space that I hadn't seen, though there was matter blocking the space), but I can't move through a door into previously unseen space. Or could I not pause at the desk and move my astral head inside to have a look around?

I can see how this gives the projector more mobility and options while still limiting scouting somewhat. I'm having trouble coming up with a good rationale for these restrictions though.

Consider the following: I visit a house that I've never entered (nor seen the interior). The door stands open, but a magical Shadow is placed over the hex so I still can't see through the Shadow and into the house. Can I pass through the Shadow? If so, how is it different than passing through the closed door?
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Old 02-08-2023, 10:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: Astral Projection

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Interesting way to carve things, Shostak.

So, if you'd seen a cave mouth previously, though you'd never been inside, you could visit it again and enter the cave. Unless, say, someone had laid branches across the mouth of the cave to cover the entrance. Or perhaps a flimsy curtain?
If there were sufficient branches to block a physical person, then yes, I’d argue that would block an astral traveller. Maybe even gauze would, too. (Maybe this explains the popularity of those blasted bead curtains my neo-hippy college housemate loved to install?) If it doesn’t work like this, how does one determine the limits of outdoor travel in the neighborhood example? Or, what if one physically visited a tavern, but never sat at a particular table. Could they only astrally visit a table they’ve frequented and just gaze at the other from a distance?

Quote:
But it's a bit ad hoc, I think, to say that I could move through a desk (thereby occupying space that I hadn't seen, though there was matter blocking the space), but I can't move through a door into previously unseen space. Or could I not pause at the desk and move my astral head inside to have a look around?
It would have been a lot easier if SJ had not written that there are no physical obstructions on the Astral Plane. But if you don’t put some limits on it, the spell is far too useful for exploration and intelligence work.

Quote:
I can see how this gives the projector more mobility and options while still limiting scouting somewhat. I'm having trouble coming up with a good rationale for these restrictions though.

Consider the following: I visit a house that I've never entered (nor seen the interior). The door stands open, but a magical Shadow is placed over the hex so I still can't see through the Shadow and into the house. Can I pass through the Shadow? If so, how is it different than passing through the closed door?
A magical shadow should not stop an astral traveller. Heck it wouldn’t stop anyone in the physical plane because it is not a barrier; it only limits sight, not movement. If a glass door separated an unvisited room from a visited one, the fact that an astral traveller could see through it wouldn’t allow them to pass through it.
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Old 02-09-2023, 06:59 PM   #19
phiwum
 
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You're not wrong that Astral Projection needs some limits or else the scouting abilities are really stunning. If the party has time, there will be nary a surprise once a wizard has Astral Projection (except, of course, the surprise of nasty critters on the Astral Plane...).

And your suggestion does put some restrictions in place.

I was thinking along the lines that one could move about as much as he wished so long as he limits himself to areas that he has been to or seen before. If you've seen the outside of the cave, you could go to the cave, perhaps enter a few feet in, since you've likely seen a part of the insides. You couldn't go further, even though you could see further.

Now, that's weird too, but simpler I think than saying that physical barriers somehow prevent you from traveling to previously unobserved areas, but without such barriers, you can travel as far as your Astral feet can take you, into seen or unseen areas[1].

Here are our options, from most to least liberal: Once an Astral Projection has begun, the Astral figure may
  1. Move freely at a walking speed, with no hindrance from physical objects.
  2. Move freely in previously seen areas, may not pass through physical objects into previously unseen areas.
  3. Move freely in previously seen areas, may not move into previously unseen areas at all.

Your option (2) is the most complicated, I think, but both (2) and (3) do have some oddities that are hard to explain. While I'm puzzled how physical objects affect movement into unseen areas and not into seen areas, I suppose the same puzzle applies to (3), more or less. What stops one from setting foot into a previously unseen area when there is no visible barrier, physical or otherwise?
[1] After, of course, first appearing in a previously seen area.
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Old 02-09-2023, 07:33 PM   #20
Bill_in_IN
 
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Default Re: Astral Projection

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You're not wrong that Astral Projection needs some limits or else the scouting abilities are really stunning. If the party has time, there will be nary a surprise once a wizard has Astral Projection (except, of course, the surprise of nasty critters on the Astral Plane...).

And your suggestion does put some restrictions in place.

I was thinking along the lines that one could move about as much as he wished so long as he limits himself to areas that he has been to or seen before. If you've seen the outside of the cave, you could go to the cave, perhaps enter a few feet in, since you've likely seen a part of the insides. You couldn't go further, even though you could see further.

Now, that's weird too, but simpler I think than saying that physical barriers somehow prevent you from traveling to previously unobserved areas, but without such barriers, you can travel as far as your Astral feet can take you, into seen or unseen areas[1].

Here are our options, from most to least liberal: Once an Astral Projection has begun, the Astral figure may
  1. Move freely at a walking speed, with no hindrance from physical objects.
  2. Move freely in previously seen areas, may not pass through physical objects into previously unseen areas.
  3. Move freely in previously seen areas, may not move into previously unseen areas at all.

Your option (2) is the most complicated, I think, but both (2) and (3) do have some oddities that are hard to explain. While I'm puzzled how physical objects affect movement into unseen areas and not into seen areas, I suppose the same puzzle applies to (3), more or less. What stops one from setting foot into a previously unseen area when there is no visible barrier, physical or otherwise?
[1] After, of course, first appearing in a previously seen area.
The thing about Astral Projection that is limiting above all else is that the PC's body is at it's most vulnerable. Unless the character has body guards standing by, anyone can walk up and kill them. While in the Astral plane, the PC has none of its physical advantages such as magic items, armor, weapons, etc. He has his staff and some of his spells. His astral body is very vulnerable too. So, with this fact established, unless someone can convince me otherwise, I would say that you option 1 above is fine. A GM can find ways to limit use by increasing the risk a character that is in the astral plane.
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