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Old 05-08-2021, 07:03 AM   #31
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

Hi Stephen,
Many MANY years back, before even the dawn of the Forums, we had GURPSNET (Which still exists I might add) as our fix of GURPS fans of the time.

In it, we had an exercise in which we had Rome Vs Carthage with two different styles of magical learning methods. One, a style in which mages were taught at schools, the other, mages were taught by the Master/Apprentice system. The ONLY spells that were available at that time, were from GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition, and you would be surprised at some of the innovative thinking that went on behind the scenes. It is because of some of these participants, that I had to adopt a certain mindset about the use of Divination spells when used in warfare, along with circle casting of spells and other such issues. The Carthaginians had a fleet of ships (oared propulsion and such). They were the invading force. And when I say "I" had to adopt a certain mindset, I ran this as an "Exercise" where I did all the die rolling, answered all of the divinations as best as possible, in something I called "MAGE WARS". Both sides had equal access to character point for builds, and equal numbers of mages.

I'm not going to get into the entirety of the war or its results, but to say, that for each tactical/strategic use of spells in GURPS MAGIC, there were counters.

So, I VERY much like where you're going with this, and I hope this conversation encourages you to go FURTHER rather than cause you to stop. You would not believe the FUN that can be had when you get a GROUP of players over the net, discussing how they will use their spell lists in aid of their war efforts.

But here is a hint for you: Animal spells provide for the perfect way to scout out formations of enemies, the lay of the land, and provide real time intelligence of aerial reconnaissance. Beast Possession, has an energy cost to maintain by the minute, but if you know it to a skill level 15, your energy cost is such that it will cost no more fatigue than walking at light encumbrance would inflict during an hour's walk. So, ST 10 mage, should last no more than 10 minutes right? Well, yes and no. In those days, a healing potion, when not used to heal actual damage, would provide 2d6 energy per drink. An assistant with Lend energy could also help extend that spell's duration. If said spell caster knew it to skill 20, they could use Beast Possession for hours at end with no energy cost.

You are doing what SHOULD have been done by the authors of the original GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition, and subsequently, GURPS BANESTORM.

Mages as characters are limited by the rules of GURPS MAGIC in what they can do. What they're not limited by is the imagination of human ingenuity. With luck, each proposed use of a spell for the use of the Military, will be accompanied by the mindset of "Ok, if Side A does X, what will Side B do to counter it?"

By definition - an area spell that affects a HEX by volume, is a 3' wide hexagonal column that is 6' high. If you want to have flames shoot 12' into the air, you have to double the cost of what an ordinary 1 hex high layer would cost. If you cast a spell that requires a circle to cast - then it can't be within reach of charging infantry or archers. If a rain of arrows pours down on a position, and suddenly, areas of flame strike nearby - it won't be because a mage cast it from up close, it will likely be because a linked spell was designed to inflict an area casting of Essential Fire where the arrow head impacts against the ground after the words "Ignium" were said prior to launch. If a cavalry force starts to charge against an enemy and suddenly, all of the horses swerve and head towards a beast master mage summoning all horses within a given radius to him - well, that's going to happen.

GURPS MAGIC has quite a few spells, and the entirety of that spell list has to be looked at to see whether or not the history of Yrth's warfare can unfold as the authors said it did or no.
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Old 05-08-2021, 07:22 AM   #32
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

Continuing on a theme...

Megalos was said to be highly organized and had its mageborn integrated well within its legions. But here is the rub. In the early incarnation of Yrth, Low mana inflicted a -6 penalty to spell casting and power levels of magic items. One needed a magic item rated at Power 21 to function in a Low mana region. Later editions of GURPS MAGIC would set this penalty to -5. But think about that for a moment. Magic swords, if crafted by mages with a skill 15 in enchantment and <magic property to be enchanted> - then such an item that required 200 days to enchant would work in all areas/regions save for one, Caithness. In order to get this item to a power level of 20 (21 originally), the mages would have to invest a total of a +6 bonus to skill. Time for Skill rules as they were, would require x2 for a +4 bonus, x3 for a +5 bonus, and x4 for a +6 bonus.

The implications of this is such that it takes between 600 to 800 days to enchant that blade (using a generic 200 days to illustrate for this purpose, a single enchantment) instead of 200. For what it took to create 1 enchanted sword that would work in ALL enemy and home battle grounds, Megalos could have 4 blades enchanted that would work in MOST enemy and home battlefields - just not in Caithness.
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Old 05-08-2021, 01:54 PM   #33
Willy
 
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

The low mana level in caithness is of course why megalos hasnīt overrun them yet, there legions rely heavy on battlemages and attached wizard corps.

By the way here is a discussion on discord I started when musing on what would happen if a larger modern army would clash with a magically supported Yrth army aka megalan legion, which is in defence and had time to prepare. I wanted an open battle so I stacked the cards and didnīt took mind spells into account, the idea needs a lot of fintunin though but may still be worth a read for the differend standpoints. I was mostly on the fly because I lost my old notes about it which included several math examples and the possible outcome of certain other spells. I still thought i had my notes when I started it. Save early save often, but what do you do if your USB sticks got lost?

https://discordapp.com/channels/2285...46639612182560

Last edited by Willy; 05-08-2021 at 01:56 PM. Reason: spelling error
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Old 05-10-2021, 02:01 AM   #34
StevenH
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

Regarding making magic swords....

It's an inefficient way to win wars. Takes too long, and ties up too many mages for too long a time.

My guess is that Megalos would make magic tools that made their "mundane" armies more effective. A magic sword under most circumstances isn't much better than a mundane sword. (Or, more likely spear, as spears beat swords in most cases, as history has shown since the Stone Age.)

So: Quality of Life items, food, anti-disease, healing, communication, movement. Logistics. Engineering (bridges and roads, perhaps rails). Air Golem (1st ed, now called Dancing Object I think) works great on a hand-pump rail car (or a pedal-powered one).

The point is, why make an item that makes only 1 person slightly more effective, when you can make items that make large groups of soldiers more effective? Besides, you need to get the biggest bang for the buck out of your enchanters. And if you can beg, borrow, steal, or sacrifice to do it with Quick and Dirty, you will. And if talismans of Paut are available, pair up an enchanter mage with an alchemist (I don't think Yrth has Paut as an option, especially with "1st Ed only" as a rule).

Speaking of alchemy, that's also a pretty cost effective way to get better effectiveness out of your soldiers. Not terribly expensive in many cases, and if you have any special forces squads they can definitely get access to even the more expensive ones.

Battle lasts an hour, adds 1d to DX, and only costs $350. Give it to your infantry in the van, and they can do some major damage.

Endurance lasts for 1d hours, and you don't lose FP. You can sprint several miles to get to a battle, far far sooner than your enemy might expect. It's expensive, though, at $1400.

Fetching and Carrying, though, only costs $300, and multiplies what you can carry by 4. So that heavy pack that was slowing you down isn't, anymore. It lasts 1d+1 hours. Similar to Endurance, but much cheaper.

Invulnerability is expensive, at $2100, but it lasts for 1d+1 hours and gives you an extra 3 DR. Worth it for the officers (might be necessary, as most magic is better used as an assassination tool rather than on the battlefield).

Stealth raises Climbing and Stealth skills by 1d points, for $550. Useful for special ops groups and scouts. A rich army might be able to afford to give it to an entire company for use as a sneaky flanking attack.

Death (mainly in pastille form) at $500 is a pretty effective attack; it does 4d damage (2d if HT save). 3 yards diameter cloud. Launch these into a massed group of infantry and knock big holes in the line. Use special crossbow bolts with the burning pastille fitted on the tips to get some range.

Fear only costs $225. Toss these randomly into the enemy's line. If the panicky troops don't mess up the maneuvers, it will at least destroy the morale of the group.

Hatred could be interesting. Especially if they group of soldiers are patriots who love their country. At $300, it could theoretically make soldiers turn on their compatriots. Even after it wore off, would the "turncoats" be trusted?
Madness might also be useful, especially if the alchemist is good enough to be able to choose the psychological disease given. PTSD would be a good one (I've seen what that can do...it's not pretty, and it at least makes the soldier an unhelpful casualty).

Odium (especially on an officer) can destroy unit cohesion and disrupt the chain of command. Expensive, at $1000.
Weakness ($400) as a pastille only lasts 1d minutes, but that might be long enough to douse the front ranks of an infantry line just before you engage. Give your side good armor, and it's possible that when the enemy is weakened, they can't damage you. Reducing the ST by 3 drops their damage by 2-4 points on average.

Pain Resistance ($600) sort of expensive, but might be good in the hands of elite troops or special ops groups. Or, perhaps, if there are popular members of companies that are looked at sort of as champions or mascots, giving them this might be good for morale. Everyone will see them shrugging off hits, not stopping, and generally being a bit more bad ass than normal.

Water-Walking ($700) would be useful to get soldiers into positions that could surprise an enemy; being able to run over the water without slogging through it will get you into position much more quickly (and quietly). It's a bit expensive, but not horribly so.

Healing and Health are both cheap, and their usefulness is obvious. In-camp diseases and infections go way down.

Sleep is cheap ($120) Pastilles will make anyone in the 3 yard diameter area have to roll HT-4 or fall asleep for at least a few hours. If you assume that most soldiers have a generous HT 11 (lots of BT) that means they need to roll a 7- or nighty night. Heck, launch a bunch of these into the enemy formation and go to town. (I've got Aarakocra in my world...I think I just thought of their favorite attack. Bombs away, sleepyheads!)
Charisma would be good for officers (and NCOs) and only costs $350. Good for unit cohesion and morale.

Hearing and Keen Sight for sentries. Or Special Ops.



(I used to run an Yrth campaign, although it was modified and likely very different from what eventually made it into the Banestorm world book years later. I stopped when the inconsistencies in it overwhelmed the playability. I think I let the "rule of cool" out of the box a little too often, and the plot holes ended up larger than the underlying tapestry. Still, it ran from '87 to sometime in the mid 90's. So not a bad run!)
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Old 05-10-2021, 04:15 AM   #35
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenH View Post
Regarding making magic swords....

It's an inefficient way to win wars. Takes too long, and ties up too many mages for too long a time.

My guess is that Megalos would make magic tools that made their "mundane" armies more effective. A magic sword under most circumstances isn't much better than a mundane sword. (Or, more likely spear, as spears beat swords in most cases, as history has shown since the Stone Age.)
Largely agree with you there. I just used Swords as an example. The whole process overall however, does require 4x longer to make for ALL regions than for most regional theater items.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenH View Post
So: Quality of Life items, food, anti-disease, healing, communication, movement. Logistics. Engineering (bridges and roads, perhaps rails). Air Golem (1st ed, now called Dancing Object I think) works great on a hand-pump rail car (or a pedal-powered one).
Air Golem is especially useful as you note. So, I'd vote on that as well. In theory, one could link the air golem to oar butts and used them for oared powered galleys. One could also in theory, use it in lieu of oxen for plows, etc.

As a player, working out how to use some spells effectively based on how they are written, I can say a lot of things are good in GURPS MAGIC in general. As a GM, I would have written some of those spells a little differently. More on that later. But in GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, AIR GOLEM did not exist. With the introduction of that spell in GURPS MAGIC - that is one "milieu changing" spell right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenH View Post
The point is, why make an item that makes only 1 person slightly more effective, when you can make items that make large groups of soldiers more effective? Besides, you need to get the biggest bang for the buck out of your enchanters. And if you can beg, borrow, steal, or sacrifice to do it with Quick and Dirty, you will. And if talismans of Paut are available, pair up an enchanter mage with an alchemist (I don't think Yrth has Paut as an option, especially with "1st Ed only" as a rule).
If you mean Paut as the alchemical equivalent of power stones, then no, GURPS FANTASY 1st or GURPS MAGIC 1st and 2nd did not have that. Being able to recover energy by means of being unwounded and drinking Healing potions is kind of nice when you get down to it. No need for Lend Energy if you can simply drink Health Potions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenH View Post
Speaking of alchemy, that's also a pretty cost effective way to get better effectiveness out of your soldiers. Not terribly expensive in many cases, and if you have any special forces squads they can definitely get access to even the more expensive ones.

<snipped some good comments about Alchemy>
The only thing I'll say about what you've pointed out as being worth the while is that Alchemical production ramped up as you suggest means that Alchemy will become the new "munitions" industry in that era.

But what you pointed out - would require some "comparisons" between GURPS FANTASY 1st vs GURPS MAGIC 1st and 2nd editions, vs the final form of GURPS MAGIC for 4e. What wasn't possible in the first incarnation of Yrth may have become possible in the 2nd incarnation of GURPS MAGIC 1st edition. Does it change the narrative a bit? Sure. But it also means that when you take "Potion" based warfare into Caithness - that those potions only have half the duration/effect in low mana than they do in normal mana.

But what you touched upon in passing, and needs to be mentioned up front is that any kind of enchantment assembly line is going to require what few enchanters you do have, be available on hand for long term training. Why long term? Each "Item" being made requires that the Mage enchanter be facile in both Enchantment and the Underlying spell being enchanted. In addition, regardless of the Enchanter's skill with Enchantment, the "Power" of a magic item is the lower of both Enchant and the Underlying spell. Thus, Enchanters who can make MULTIPLE different items are going to have to branch out.

GURPS 3rd edition (and I can check 2nd edition later on after I finish writing this) had a specific limitation on the number of points that could be invested in a starting character based upon character age.

"And note that a beginning character may not put more than (2 x age) points into skills; a 12-year old child could have a maximum of 24 points in skills."

GURPS 4th edition did away with that entirely. But - getting back on my original point:

Enchantment as a bottleneck, was initially based upon the fact that only 9% of the "Mageborn" population could have magery 2+. If Magery 1 was 10 times more prevalent than Magery 2, and Magery 2 was 10x more prevalent than magery 3, that means that for every 10 magery 1 - we had 1 magery 2+

That's 1/11th of the entire mage born population, which was stated initially to be 2% of the general population (ie 1 in 50).

Which brings me back to the overall initial thought - Enchanters were a major limit upon who or which mages could even begin to study Enchantments, let alone craft them. Then the prerequisite system of spells meant that enchanters had to diversify from the start, into multiple colleges of spells, which meant that they would have to specialize in with those spells deemed most commercially viable (ie worth learning in order to sell your services to your employer).

Mageborn - in terms of Society, are "Coins" to be spent. Translation: Each mage is essentially a specialist, that once put to use in society by their specialization, can't be spent elsewhere.

What opened my eyes as a GM running a campaign using ALL of the GURPS rules in say, GURPS 3e revised, was this:

Tracking which spells YOUNG mages learn in order to track their educational progress means that many of the "Good" spells take time before the mageborn can learn them, let alone use them.

Part of me wants to start up a thread, not in the GURPS area, but in the GENERAL ROLEPLAYING area or even in the play by post area, where - I set up a general TL 3 model containing 10 "Landed Knights" at TL 3, with 25,000 people inhabiting some 10 villages. Going STRICTLY by demographics as existed by social class in Historical Earth Circa 1200 AD in England, assign various "NPC" types by social class break down, and from there, by demographical breakdown by magery. From there, break them down by gender as well as by age.

Then the entire THREAD would be based on a joint "world building team" making suggestions on how to spend those mageborn. Some mageborn won't study magic because they're not born to the right family perhaps (Ie social class opportunities). Some just don't have the intellectual capacity to enjoy magery based activity. Some may very well specialize in things simply because they love being a crafter despite their inate ability with magic.

Some "enlightened Lords" may very well tell one of their "Serfs" that in lieu of having to pay the Lord in free labor for their responsibility, they can pay some of that labor in kind (ie substituting specialized things the lord wants instead of tax money, or best animal, or what have you). Then there is the Church that demands 1/10th of your income/labor/food as its Tithe. If your Goose lays 10 eggs, by right, 1 of those eggs belongs to the Parish Priest.

The idea here is to say "hey, let's detail 10 villages and see where it takes us".

Once you start to spend your mages on various pursuits, then you can REALLY see just how prevelant or how rare those mages doing what they do, really are. We can also perhaps see what kind of spells are going to be needed by the professional mage within a community of over 2,550 people (assuming roughly 550 families total and about 5 people per family average).

The only problem I see with this kind of effort is having the interest level to actively pursue it.

For instance? GURPS makes the presumption that a given "worker" earns X amount of income, pays Y amount of upkeep, and the rest of the income is discretionary. But in the case of the Alchemist, whose potions retail for $1,200 (just picking a number out of thin air), isn't going to have a lot of low income (aka struggling income) customers. Claiming that there will be one Alchemist per X number of farmers is going to require justification for their business, let alone how MANY there are.

That however, is a thread for a different time, different topic.

And yes, this is a WORLD BUILDER style thread rather than a GURPS thread - as KROMM is wont to say...

"This is a role playing game, not a Simulation" (or words to that effect) It is however, this very STRUCTURE that makes thinking "What if" that made me enjoy those Alaconius lectures in the first place. I LOVE the implications of the spells in GURPS MAGIC, and I especially love to put my love for History to use. Had someone told me at age 21, that I'd purchase a translation of the Domesday Book (from Latin to readable English) I would have told them they're nuts! But I did.

LOL

On that note, time to bring this to a close. If anyone WOULD Be interested in my taking the time to do that set up, please private message me, or better yet, email me. If I get at least three people interested in this, then I'll take the time to detail those 10 villages.
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Old 05-10-2021, 04:27 AM   #36
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willy View Post
The low mana level in caithness is of course why megalos hasnīt overrun them yet, there legions rely heavy on battlemages and attached wizard corps.

By the way here is a discussion on discord I started when musing on what would happen if a larger modern army would clash with a magically supported Yrth army aka megalan legion, which is in defence and had time to prepare. I wanted an open battle so I stacked the cards and didnīt took mind spells into account, the idea needs a lot of fintunin though but may still be worth a read for the differend standpoints. I was mostly on the fly because I lost my old notes about it which included several math examples and the possible outcome of certain other spells. I still thought i had my notes when I started it. Save early save often, but what do you do if your USB sticks got lost?

https://discordapp.com/channels/2285...46639612182560
I wish I had saved my Magewar notes and emails as well, but my drive got corrupted when my daughter's friend broke certain "protocol rules" and went to sites that were laced with malware. I still burn with resentment at the kid who did that even after all these years (lost a lot of valuable pictures and other valuable files darn it!).

One of the tactical saving graces of GURPS MAGIC is the -1 penalty per 3 feet of distance from spell caster. It means that mages don't automatically overwhelm "Mundane" defenses with their spells. Some spells that permit a mage or fighter to bypass physical mundane barriers are toublesome - but a mundane defense was feasible in GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, that became more problematical in GURPS MAGIC 1st and/or 2nd edition. By the time of GURPS MAGIC for 4e, Mundane Defenses became impossible to defend. Cheap "Rain of <insert method of destruction> spells made it highly improbable for Mundane defenses to survive unless they were housed in no mana regions or protected by insanely huge pentagrams etc.

Here is a thought for you Willy:

Create a scenario, and set it up either in General Role playing or in Play by Post. If you can get at least TWO players to join in, one for the Defender side, one for the Offense side - why not "run" such a thing again here at the Forums? All of the stuff you write will be archived and you can start up your notes again. Burn the notes onto a CD as well as placing it on your Flash drive. ;)

Heck, share your notes via email as an attachment and you can even have off site storage!
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Old 05-10-2021, 01:14 PM   #37
Willy
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Here is a thought for you Willy:

Create a scenario, and set it up either in General Role playing or in Play by Post. If you can get at least TWO players to join in, one for the Defender side, one for the Offense side - why not "run" such a thing again here at the Forums? All of the stuff you write will be archived and you can start up your notes again. Burn the notes onto a CD as well as placing it on your Flash drive. ;)

Heck, share your notes via email as an attachment and you can even have off site storage!
thanks for the proposal, but there are several problems.

First I never GMed 4 Ed, and even actively PLAYED since 5 years because after there was no german translation of 4th Ed new players wandered of to other systems and the old stuck to 3 rd ED. And die out from lack of content.

Second actually I search for links in my free time about GURPS for some friends and send most what I find to a Wiki. Being the person that I am I tend to stick to a task until I consider itīs done.

Third I may have time now and than but to say it bluntly a lot of health issues so I canīt plan upfront when and if I have time so Iīm not reliable in that point.

Fourth and thatīs a promise to a certain time I will ask some friends what the thinks about my Yrth ideas, not all are miltiary but most deal with newcomers and there reactions and vice versa, Iīm personally a big fan of Banestorm and portal scenarios or what happens if magic comes into a industrialy developped world. Just PM me and I add you to the list.
Some of this scenarios ripe in my head since decades, but I too had no more the written down ideas and I want them at least not completely against canon, so I have to look where the official description of YRTH ends and whatīs the condition of Yrth than.
And yes once, if my friends say itīs not completely rubbish, IīI will share my ideas, whatīs the fun of developing scenarios who are never played ?

Last edited by Willy; 05-10-2021 at 01:16 PM. Reason: spelling error
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Old 05-10-2021, 02:42 PM   #38
StevenH
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

This next bit isn't specifically Yrth, but the reasoning could be similar.

Mage population

1 in 50 humans has magery 0. One in ten of those might have Magery 1; one in ten of those might have Magery 2; one in ten of those might have Magery 3. Of those, one in 100 might have Magery 4. That means that in Farsskal, with an area of about 90000 square miles and a population of 8700000: 174000 people have the aptitude to learn/cast magic; 17400 have Magery 1; 1740 have Magery 2; 174 have Magery 3; and 2 with Magery 4. Just because someone has the aptitude doesn’t mean that they realize they have it, or have the resources to put it to use. So actual practicing mages are less common than the above numbers would indicate. Assume (optimistically) that 1 in 5 mages has realized and utilized their gift, and know some spells. Increased levels of Magery have higher utilization chances: 1 in 10 for M0; 1 in 5 for M1; 1 in 3 for M2; and 1 in 2 for M3. That gives Farsskal 2 M4 Wizards, 87 M3 Wizards, 579 M2 Wizards, 3480 M1 Wizards, and 17400 M0 Wizards.

That's an example for an entire country, albeit a smallish one. (Also note that in my world, different species have different rates of incidence of Magery; what's listed above is only the notes on Human rates.) For those that want more info on this, here is the link to the full article.

Here is my example of the main area of my campaign, the city of Port Karn, which is part of the Tondene Empire, a much larger polity than Farsskal.

Different races have different rates of magical ability. The first number is the total number of people that are born with the ability to manipulate mana (aka "Magery"). Numbers in parentheses are the numbers of mages actually trained to use magic. For clarity, people born with Magery are "mages". People with Magery who are actually trained in spellcasting are "wizards", "spellcasters", "sorcerors", or any number of other terms. Not all mages know how to cast spells; Magery is an inborn talent; spells are skills that need to be learned.

Orcs--58(6)M0, 6(1)M1, 0M2, 0M3, 0M4
Humans--466(47)M0, 47(9)M1, 5(2)M2, 0M3, 0M4
Goblins--164(33)M0, 16(5)M1, 2(1, Joraaki)M2, 0M3, 0M4
Hobbits--96(10)M0, 10(2)M1, 1M2, 0(1, Daisey Dubrow)M3, 0M4
Elves--91(30)M0, 18(9)M1, 4(2)M2, 1(1)M3, 0M4
Dwarves--17(6)M0, 3(1)M2, 0(1, Harald)M3, 0M4
Aarakocra--0M0, 0M1, 0M2, 0M3, 0M4


Port Karn is a major city; one of the largest in the Empire. But this shows how rare mages, and by extension, enchanters are.



In a city of 68,500 people, there are a total of 13 people who could be enchanters (two of which I know aren't: Joraaki and Daisey). That leaves 11 trained mages with enough Magery to possibly (but not necessarily) be enchanters.

As Hal notes, the educational requirements to be an enchanter are steep, about the same as a Masters Degree or PhD. Considering that each spell is roughly the equivalent of Physics in game terms, having to learn at least 11 courses of study with the same difficulty as Physics is daunting. (A better analogy might be the different disciplines of medical school; with each spell being the equivalent of, say, Otolaryngology, Gastroenterology, Neurology, Radiology, Surgery, etc.)

In any case, it's one hell of a course-load.
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Old 05-10-2021, 02:54 PM   #39
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
I invite people to discuss how the spells as they were added to the "world of Yrth in various publications, would have affected the narrative in GURPS YRTH from GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition, and ultimately, GURPS BANESTORM.
Before we start, lets collect statements in those books and the setting books about which spells exist and are commonly known on Yrth. Because since GURPS Grimoire, the GURPS Magic spell list has never been intended to be a list of every spell which is common in a specific setting, Its more of a spice cabinet where you can search for ingredients and inspiration.

Kromm remembers that GURPS 4e Banestorm says that only the spells from the 4e Basic Set are common ... is that in the text of the book? What did earlier versions of the setting and the magic rules say?
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Old 05-10-2021, 03:54 PM   #40
Willy
 
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Before we start, lets collect statements in those books and the setting books about which spells exist and are commonly known on Yrth. Because since GURPS Grimoire, the GURPS Magic spell list has never been intended to be a list of every spell which is common in a specific setting, Its more of a spice cabinet where you can search for ingredients and inspiration.

Kromm remembers that GURPS 4e Banestorm says that only the spells from the 4e Basic Set are common ... is that in the text of the book? What did earlier versions of the setting and the magic rules say?
Well you also need to take into account, unless SJG wants a reboot of Yrth, and since they literally wrote the story from Fantasy 3rd Ed forth, that didnīt make sense. Also there were publications that made the available spell list a lot bigger.

And if Dr. Kromm says common that means by his own words only that the knowledge is widespread enough that you can learn it openly and in a lot of places, it doesnīt mean that a eremite in the great desert or the whitehood mountains doesnīt knows spells otherwise unknown.

The 3rd Ed fantasy lists a number of PCs / NPCs with there spell list, as well the supplements Tredroy and Harkwood, also a location called orc town is given in one of the 3rd ed or older Pyramid / Roleplayer issues. If a spell is known also at least the prerequisites are canon too, there are of course different ways to fulfill the prereqs. Than there are some 4th Ed supplements that add to this spell lists a lot namely Abbydos. Also there are in the Pyramid a detailed picture of a arratere city and the surroundings, the last publication that list explicitely something about YRTH and not only magic was GURPS city stats. Or is there supplement Pyramid Iīm missing, if yes donīt hesitate to tell me.

Further the Banestrom book adds also some YRTH only spells to deal with and find newcomers.

There must be at least a spell/ magical artifact or gate nexus that allows to leave Yrth even if itīs a quantum saragossa. A patrol man escaped that way from Yrth.

The no go spells are of course all spells that deal with technolies that on Yrth not exitst radiation spells for example.

Anyway that this spells donīt exist on Yrth now doesnīt mean that the didnīt work there and thanks to the multiple worlds that brought beings to Yrth, some with magic itīs all ways a possibility that a mage knowing such spells is banestormed.

If you read between the lines there are hints in 4th Ed Banestorm that there are newcomers with fairly advanced knowledge like the centauer knowing more of metallurgie than he should.

So the first mission is to read every Yrth book supplement note the spells and search for the prereqs. Which is a lot of work.

Last edited by Willy; 05-10-2021 at 03:58 PM. Reason: spelling error
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