GURPS BattleTech, working out heatsinks and the effects of heat buildup

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

T

Early 20th century would be TL5~6. I would call WWII-era "mid-20th century."
r.

Nope, TL6 starts at 1880. "Early 20th Century" is solidly TL6 and wWII marks the beginning of TL7 at 1940.

[Rolando]

Most mechs don't have thermal sight, I remember many scenarios with heavy penalties for fighting at night and needing spotlights and searchlights, like it was 1950's at least.

Also, while it was conceived in 1980, so you may say it was not retrofuturism at the time it is now, because the technology developed differently but the setting got stuck in the 80's tech. just like Jules Verne stories were simple scy fi at the time but now steampunk is retrofuturism.

most things in battletech, at least at around 3025-3028, are WWII to Cold War era technology, with sprinkled supertech, like PPC's and lasers...even the missiles are unguided rockets.

I would suggest a range of TL's from 5 to 9 for consumer goods and up to 10 for the very advanced stuff, or maybe a divergent TL to represent the goofiness of the setting that gives it it's charm.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Rolando

Also, while it was conceived in 1980, so you may say it was not retrofuturism at the time it is now, because the technology developed differently but the setting got stuck in the 80's tech. just like Jules Verne stories were simple scy fi at the time but now steampunk is retrofuturism.

Except this is the same setting. Ongoing Battletech material isn't a new setting aping 80s futurism, it's a continuation of a story that started being written almost 40 years ago.

Originally Posted by Rolando

most things in battletech, at least at around 3025-3028, are WWII to Cold War era technology, with sprinkled supertech, like PPC's and lasers...even the missiles are unguided rockets.

Uh, the missiles that can perform targeted indirect fire against moving targets? Those missiles?

Non-guided LRMs and SRMs are actually an official variant ammo type developed around the end of the clan invasion...

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Uh, the missiles that can perform targeted indirect fire against moving targets? Those missiles?

Yep, LRM Indirect Fire requires a spotter, not a guidance system. It's a ballistic-trajectory attack. It requires as much of a guidance system as a Long Tom shell does.

Originally Posted by BattleTech 4th Edition Rules, 1996, pg 46

Long-Range Missiles (LRM)
LRM racks fire indirect salvos of high-explosive missiles at distant targets.

Short-Range Missiles (SRM)
SRMs are direct-trajectory missiles with high-explosive or armor-piercing explosive warheads. They are accurate only at ranges of less than 300 meters but are more powerful than LRMs.

BattleTech missiles don't get any semblance of guidance until the 20-Year Update with LK (Listen-Kill) technology. And then in TRO 2750 we get our first taste of guided missiles with Streak SRM-2s and the Artemis IV Fire-Control System. The Streak guaranteed a hit, or it doesn't use ammo, and the Artemis just increased the number of missiles that hit on a successful hit. It doesn't increase the likelihood of a hit, just improves the number of missiles that hit when it hits.

BattleTech has been chasing power-creep for so long now, retconning has become the order of the day.

DFRs were the answer to the question "why aren't our missiles guided" that came out with the influx of new players from the Clan invasion. Just like Tandem-Charge warheads were the answer to the question "if this is armor piercing, why does it only do armor damage?" It was a short-sighted answer to a question that was better answered with "it was a mechanical conceit that we made when developing the game."

LRMs and SRMs were fired in salvos to make up for the fact that they were unguided.

But, FASA never was good at understanding what they had. I'll quote a couple of lines:

Originally Posted by TRO 3050 (Original), pg 24

A 'Mech capable of many tasks but excelling at none, the Black Hawk plays a secondary role to heavier and lighter Omni-Mechs within the Clans' arsenal.

Which was a FASA not understanding what they had made. This was "retconned" in the next TRO they put out.

Originally Posted by TRO 3055 (Original), pg 70

One of the most feared Clan 'Mechs that the Federated Commonwealth faced during the invasion was the Nova or Black Hawk, a machine devastating in combat on all fronts.

Because 12 Clan ER Medium Lasers--and the Heat Sinks to use them--will melt over five tons of armor with a salvo.

BattleTech, more than most games, can be pointed at to prove whatever you want. Having been in production since 1984, and having gone through three companies, a lot has changed and continues to do so.

Heck, they even try to tell us that the Bandersnatch (Image) is using a chassis with a similar profile and style as the Marauder (Image).

Which, maybe, without my glasses at a range of 20+ yards would look similar (a greyish blob?). But, not with any level of detail.

Play BattleTech. Play it how you want. Enjoy it. Make it your own. All of this is semantic. None of it matters. Just play. Play and enjoy. GURPS BattleTech is two great tastes that go great together.

But remember: It's always Comstar.
This message brought to you by Lord Nemesis.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Yep, LRM Indirect Fire requires a spotter, not a guidance system. It's a ballistic-trajectory attack. It requires as much of a guidance system as a Long Tom shell does.

Which it very much does if it's intended to land a first-shot direct hit, or any direct hit on a moving target. Indirect fire with dumb rounds and a forward observer expects to have to make corrections and usually to only score near hits unless you're reducing a fortified building.

Also, LRMs and SRMs need to be hit in salvos to inflict effective damage on armored targets. You don't fire 5-20 LRMs and hit with one or two and call it good because that barely scratches the paint. (They're also not especially inaccurate in any source I've seen but I don't know about the original.)

The overall point that the BattleTech corpus isn't very self-consistent (or logical - they have canonical transforming 'land-air mechs' in there) so you need to take what you want from it is probably the key, though.

[Kfireblade]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Nope. He didn't die.

It was the original BattleTech Marty-Stu: Kai Allard-Liao who did it, at the Battle of Twycross (3050).

Sarna-Net Links there.

Nah, I was not talking about the battle of Twycross. Thinking on it, I think it happened on Solaris VII at the start of the fedcom civil war

[Kfireblade]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

You're welcome to play however you want, but as other quotes have pointed out, BattleTech wasn't a high-tech setting until they started retconning it for the Clans/post-clan invasion.

I mean, the start year I'm thinking of is probably like, 3048 or 9. I suppose by that point in the timeline the retcons had hit because, I mean, even the 4th succession war novels I've read nothing ever struck me as horribly low tech, for sure nothing all the way down to TL 5.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kfireblade

I mean, the start year I'm thinking of is probably like, 3048 or 9. I suppose by that point in the timeline the retcons had hit because, I mean, even the 4th succession war novels I've read nothing ever struck me as horribly low tech, for sure nothing all the way down to TL 5.

I couldn't tell you about the publication timeline but it looks like the dissemination of Helm Memory Core and the start of the 4th Succession War were contemporary.

[Kfireblade]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I couldn't tell you about the publication timeline but it looks like the dissemination of Helm Memory Core and the start of the 4th Succession War were contemporary.

I think that's about right. Idk, maybe the novels (the ones I've read anyway) just never really touch on anything other then more developed worlds. I believe around that time the fedsuns black box communicators came into play though, so that shows a pretty advanced grasp of technology to be able to come up with those.

edit
correction, the Lyrans developed them and gave then to the feds.

further edit:
Actually Katrina found one and brought it back with her, but then by 3020 they where already able to reproduce them, and the memory core wasn't found until 3028 right as the 4th war was kicking off.

[warellis]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Basically, yes. The majority of the Inner Sphere was super-low tech. The core worlds were around TL 7~8 with a little 9. Only Earth, and ComStar enclaves, were at high tech.

I can't find the discussion where one of the Precentors joked about how poor NAIS (New Avalon Institute of Science) was equipped compared to Earth Elementary schools.

IIRC the Clans are more advanced than the Star League was, or Comstar, right?