RPM Summoning and controlling

[qchap]

Hello! I continue to think through RPM and some new questions came up.

It's obvious that if you take full Control (with Mind or Body paths, or maybe other, like Spirit) of some creature, it's obvious that it is, well, controlled by you (and there are rules in the How to be a GURPS GM: RPM, near Summon modifier).
And, as I understand, creature summoned by Crossroads is NOT controlled.

Now, do you control the summoned creature if you created it via Create? Like Create Energy + Create Mind to summon fire elemental. I think yes, because with Create Mind you could just give it some disadvantage while creating, making it serve you. But in Monster Hunters 3 there is stated, that you should add Control Undead to your undead creation spell in order to rule them. It confused me.

So, there are questions:

Do I have to add Summon modifier, if I summon some creature with Crossroads effect, without controlling it? I see several possibilities:
1) You can summon, like, "any demon";
2) You can summon "any demon with this trait I want";
3) You can summon "a demon with exact traits I listed if such exists",
4) You can summon " this exact demon I know".
Any differences in such cases?
Than, two more:
1) You can summon "any angel", which still could be hostile, despite being angel;
2) You can summon " an angel of my deity, who will help me willingly".
Any differences?
If the answer is "yes, you must use Summon modifier", should I than pay for Control modifier, if I later would cast a ritual to take control of the summoned creature?
And some minor subquestion: If I desided to add Control effect to my summon ritual, do I add Control or Summon modifier?

Next question is wether I need to add Create Mind to my Create Unded ritual to create a vampire (or any sapient and even clever undead)? The same goes for Create Spirit. This is a question because, as I understand, this two paths are like Body+Mind, but for undeads/spirits. But I am not sure.
If I don't need Mind path, do I rule my creation, or is it fully independant? And what if I added Create Mind to give them some disadvantage during creation, so they obey me?

And in general, can Create Mind make my creation obey me, or I have to add Control? If it cant, do I stil pay for Summon modifier, if I don't control my summon?

[qchap]

Now one more question appeared in my head.

Say, I used a ritual to gain full control of some person, using Control Mind with Control modifier. How am I control it? I think it doesn't take my mental commands, because for it I have to add Sense Mind, right? So how does the controlled person obey? To my verbal comands?
What about Body path?

And one more small question. To gain control of some creature, I have to pay for Control modifier, depending of the creature's poin cost. But I don't know it! How do I determine the cost? Sense Magic is enough? Or a path for a creature type, like Spirit or Undead? Then what path should be used for human - Body, Mind, either or both?

[Shostak]

I think that to control a summoned being, you'd need a Control Mind effect. If you wanted that to be telepathic, you'd need to add that, too. You don't need to pay a surcharge for the point value of the creature whose mind you seek to control, just the cost of Control (but see below).

There are summoning modifiers listed in How to Be a Ritual Path Magic GM, a little book worth its modest cost. These modifiers speak to the question of the summoned entity's point value in comparison to the campaign's power level, and recommend using "base model" versions of the beings. There is also advice th the GM on an optional modifier to discourage instant minions.

If you want characters to be able to summon a specific demon or angel, they should probably add a Sense effect to establish contact.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by qchap

And, as I understand, creature summoned by Crossroads is NOT controlled.

Correct. You open a gateway and it comes through. Add Control (whatever) to properly control it via a binding ritual.

Originally Posted by qchap

Now, do you control the summoned creature if you created it via Create? Like Create Energy + Create Mind to summon fire elemental. I think yes, because with Create Mind you could just give it some disadvantage while creating, making it serve you. But in Monster Hunters 3 there is stated, that you should add Control Undead to your undead creation spell in order to rule them. It confused me.

No. You do not. Creating something and controlling it are two separate things.

Originally Posted by qchap

Do I have to add Summon modifier, if I summon some creature with Crossroads effect, without controlling it? I see several possibilities:
1) You can summon, like, "any demon";
2) You can summon "any demon with this trait I want";
3) You can summon "a demon with exact traits I listed if such exists",
4) You can summon " this exact demon I know".

Yes. You do. The reason for this is because the more powerful the being the harder the spell. So even if you are summoning Pazuzu but not controlling him you need to figure out how hard the ritual to summon him is to pull off.

Originally Posted by qchap

Than, two more:
1) You can summon "any angel", which still could be hostile, despite being angel;
2) You can summon " an angel of my deity, who will help me willingly".
Any differences?
If the answer is "yes, you must use Summon modifier", should I than pay for Control modifier, if I later would cast a ritual to take control of the summoned creature?

Yes, use the summon modifier. In all instances you get what you pay for. If you summon a being you can attempt a reaction roll to get it to help you without a control binding. Otherwise it does what it wants to do.

Originally Posted by qchap

And some minor subquestion: If I desided to add Control effect to my summon ritual, do I add Control or Summon modifier?

Summoned. Control is specifically for mind controlled beings other than summoned creatures. You don't pay for both except in the weirdest of circumstances or perhaps if you are trying to someone a archdemon or something THEN I'd require both.

Originally Posted by qchap

Next question is wether I need to add Create Mind to my Create Unded ritual to create a vampire (or any sapient and even clever undead)? The same goes for Create Spirit. This is a question because, as I understand, this two paths are like Body+Mind, but for undeads/spirits. But I am not sure.
If I don't need Mind path, do I rule my creation, or is it fully independant? And what if I added Create Mind to give them some disadvantage during creation, so they obey me?

No, you'd just use two Create Undead effects. Path of Undead is Path of Mind and Body in one skill for all undead beings. As for ruling it, add Summoned for something you make or Controlled for something you take.

Originally Posted by qchap

And in general, can Create Mind make my creation obey me, or I have to add Control? If it cant, do I stil pay for Summon modifier, if I don't control my summon?

You get what you pay for. Always. No free lunch in RPM.

[qchap]

Thank you for your answers!

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

No. You do not. Creating something and controlling it are two separate things.

So, it would be illegal to give a mind I just created via Create Mind (and paid for Summoned modifier) some disadvantages like Slave Mentality and Sense of Duty (the caster)?

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

No, you'd just use two Create Undead effects. Path of Undead is Path of Mind and Body in one skill for all undead beings. As for ruling it, add Summoned for something you make or Controlled for something you take.

Now it really makes sense if you use two Undead effects - for mind and for body. Thanks!

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by qchap

Thank you for your answers!

No worries.

Originally Posted by qchap

So, it would be illegal to give a mind I just created via Create Mind (and paid for Summoned modifier) some disadvantages like Slave Mentality and Sense of Duty (the caster)?

Yeah, GM can rule otherwise, but that's how its supposed to go. I found early on that summoning monsters who are effective slaves to your will is inversely cheaper than it should be because the monster is worth less points. In my games I require the Summoned modifier and "minion" disads if you want to summon a critter who must do as you say. It's not much more, but it doesn't cause dissonance at the table.

Originally Posted by qchap

Now it really makes sense if you use two Undead effects - for mind and for body. Thanks!

:-)

[dcarson]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Correct. You open a gateway and it comes through. Add Control (whatever) to properly control it via a binding ritual.







You get what you pay for. Always. No free lunch in RPM.

I assume that three seperate rituals to do things the traditional way would work to keep energy down per ritual.

1) Create )pentagram) shaped ward

2) Summon being into pentagram

3) Control being (opposed by its will)

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by dcarson

I assume that three seperate rituals to do things the traditional way would work to keep energy down per ritual.

1) Create )pentagram) shaped ward

2) Summon being into pentagram

3) Control being (opposed by its will)

You could. It would probably be a bit more dangerous to do it, but yeah. Sure.

[qchap]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

In my games I require the Summoned modifier and "minion" disads if you want to summon a critter who must do as you say. It's not much more, but it doesn't cause dissonance at the table.

So, If I understand this statement correct, I could summon a being, e.g., with Create Energy + Create Mind (some kind of fire elemental), adding Summoned modifier without accounting for Slave Mentality and such, but adding such disadvantages with Altered Trait modifier? And it would work without a Control effect?

[qchap]

Oh, and one more thing. Say, I am creating a living and intelligent creature, adding Control Mind to it. Create Body would be Greater effect, Create Mind depends on sapience - Greater for sapient. Would Control Mind in this ritual be Lesser Or Greater effect, since it's me creating the mind?