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Old 05-06-2019, 12:20 PM   #51
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: Alternate XP progression schedule

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
Talents from ST and DX increases? No, I don't like that. Those stats already have plenty of inherent 'value' w/o adding another benefit. Plus I can't really see the logic in connecting those physical attributes to skill acquisition (beyond their current role as prerequisites).
I can. Pretty much any physical talent, weapons skill, etc should be tied to physical skill increases. The IQ thing is artificial and more a game relic than any reflection on real world behaviour.
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:01 PM   #52
HeatDeath
 
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Default Re: Alternate XP progression schedule

"Conan the Wizard" isn't the only problem the new XP guidelines are trying to solve.

Any old-school dungeon-crawl system is going to have a distinct tendency to degenerate into a bunch of teenagers (mental, if not physical) indulging their sociopathic tendencies as a bunch of medieval superhuman murderhobos, but the old system of XP for landed blows and coups-de-grace positively encouraged it.

Steve writes at length in the Companion essay about how distasteful he finds that style of play. It's no surprise whatsoever that he took the opportunity to rip that dynamic out by the roots.

The increased emphasis on talents at high experience levels is a pretty clear attempt to shift the emphasis from raw progression-as-a-goal-in-itself to roleplaying, per se. I'm not seeing how the proposals here are much more than just an attempt to re-enshrine murderhobo-ism at the heart of the progression system.

[ Not to be construed as an attack, mind you. I'm of the tactical combat school of TFT - slamming roughly equal squads into each other and watching the blood spray is great! But these contests are frankly more interesting at low-to-middling power levels. And balance is absolutely necessary. To invoke Ogre, if you run a MkVI against a MkIII defense, neither player is gonna have fun, no matter how hard the MkVI player worked to "earn" it. ]
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:24 PM   #53
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Alternate XP progression schedule

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Originally Posted by Tywyll View Post
I can. Pretty much any physical talent, weapons skill, etc should be tied to physical skill increases. The IQ thing is artificial and more a game relic than any reflection on real world behaviour.
Of course it's artificial... all game systems must abstract reality into limited rule mechanics, TFT moreso than most, but that doesn’t invalidate the approach. I think it is an inspired bit of game design TBH. Besides, dependencies on other stats are already built into the system in the form of prerequisites.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 05-06-2019 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:42 PM   #54
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Default Re: Alternate XP progression schedule

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Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
"Conan the Wizard" isn't the only problem the new XP guidelines are trying to solve.

Any old-school dungeon-crawl system is going to have a distinct tendency to degenerate into a bunch of teenagers (mental, if not physical) indulging their sociopathic tendencies as a bunch of medieval superhuman murderhobos, but the old system of XP for landed blows and coups-de-grace positively encouraged it.

Steve writes at length in the Companion essay about how distasteful he finds that style of play. It's no surprise whatsoever that he took the opportunity to rip that dynamic out by the roots.

The increased emphasis on talents at high experience levels is a pretty clear attempt to shift the emphasis from raw progression-as-a-goal-in-itself to roleplaying, per se. I'm not seeing how the proposals here are much more than just an attempt to re-enshrine murderhobo-ism at the heart of the progression system.
Fortunately, I never experienced that kind of gameplay in TFT (though I certainly did in AD&D) so I don't think you can hang that on the ruleset. And shifting the progression emphasis away from stats to talents will not remove the possibility of gameplay degeneration into 'murderhobo-ism' since all you are doing is redefining what it means to achieve true power as a character.

On the subject of how XP is awarded, however, I strongly believe that a well-balanced approach includes both quantitative and qualitative elements (see one of my previous posts). Rewarding nothing but monster-killing, gold-grabbing behavior (I find treasure-driven XP to be particularly objectionable) is what leads to 'murderhobo-ism' IMO. It has nothing to do with how XP is eventually spent.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 05-06-2019 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 08-04-2019, 06:26 PM   #55
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Default Re: Alternate XP progression schedule

OK, I think I've finally settled on the character progression model that I will be using in place of the LE revisions in my campaign. I've worked on a few iterations over the last 8 months or so, but always felt the initial novice phase was over too quickly with my previous attempts. So without further ado...

Novice tier: Up to 36-points
31 - 100 XP
32 - 100 XP
33 - 200 XP
34 - 200 XP
35 - 300 XP
36 - 300 XP

Veteran tier: 37 to 42 points
37 - 600 XP
38 - 600 XP
39 - 800 XP
40 - 800 XP
41 - 1000 XP
42 - 1000 XP

Legendary tier: 43 to 48 points
43 - 2000 XP
44 - 2000 XP
45 - 2500 XP
46 - 2500 XP
47 - 3000 XP
48 - 3000 XP

Advancement beyond this point is possible, but unlikely given the escalating costs.
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Old 03-20-2022, 11:24 AM   #56
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: Alternate XP progression schedule

Quote:
Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
OK, I think I've finally settled on the character progression model that I will be using in place of the LE revisions in my campaign. I've worked on a few iterations over the last 8 months or so, but always felt the initial novice phase was over too quickly with my previous attempts. So without further ado...

Novice tier: Up to 36-points
31 - 100 XP
32 - 100 XP
33 - 200 XP
34 - 200 XP
35 - 300 XP
36 - 300 XP

Veteran tier: 37 to 42 points
37 - 600 XP
38 - 600 XP
39 - 800 XP
40 - 800 XP
41 - 1000 XP
42 - 1000 XP

Legendary tier: 43 to 48 points
43 - 2000 XP
44 - 2000 XP
45 - 2500 XP
46 - 2500 XP
47 - 3000 XP
48 - 3000 XP

Advancement beyond this point is possible, but unlikely given the escalating costs.
So, I kind of like this but the original TFT was even a little tougher than this. One could adopt the original EXP cost/Attribute chart and still be a little more strict.

I agree that per the current ITL suggestions for EXP award, this schedule should still combat the attribute bloat of the original system while still promoting the EXP purchase of talents/spells due to the increased cost of attributes. It would also address the talents/spells bloat at a stalled IQ promoted by the EXP cost/attribute in the new ITL.

In my personal opinion, they didn't have to make the EXP cost/attribute so mathematically unreasonable to combat attribute bloat. merely adding the option to purchase talents/spells with EXP would have done that and added an interesting dimension in character development to the same game.

The new ITL still reveals itself to be an exercise in NERFing and stifling run amok. Character development is also one of the fun aspects of this game that seems to have been NERFed out of it. I get that there was Attribute bloat under the original system. As a GM, I knew how to deal with it while keeping the game active and fun. I will attribute that to the fact that our encounters and battles grew to involve more than a small handful of characters. It is easier to accommodate a wide spread opf attribute totals when you have a battle involving 40+ PCs.
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Old 03-20-2022, 06:10 PM   #57
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Alternate XP progression schedule

So bearing in mind that I haven't updated this thread since August of 2019, I actually have stuck pretty close to the XP schedule that I posted back then. The difference is that my progession model is only one of numerous other significant changes that I have made to TFT over the last couple years. For example, the concept of character 'Tiers' is now core to my revised ruleset.

I also did a complete 180° with regard to keeping talents tied to IQ increases after character creation (i have actually eliminated most IQ prerequisites), but that’s a whole 'nother thread.

Anyway here's the framework I use now...

NOVICE Tier progression:
100 XP for each attribute point if character total is less than 32;
200 XP for 33rd/34th points;
300 XP for 35th/36th points;
250 XP for simple talents or spells (mostly equivalent to 1-point abilities);
400 XP for complex talents or spells (mostly equivalent to 2-point abilities);
450 XP for Tier 1 Powers (my own addition to the rules)

Once the character earns their 37th attribute point, they are in the VETERAN Tier.

In the VETERAN Tier:
600 XP for 37th/38th points;
800 XP for 39th/40th points;
1000 XP for 41st/42nd points;
900 XP for simple 'Veteran' talents or spells;
1200 XP for complex 'Veteran' talents or spells;
1300 XP for Tier 2 Powers

The two VETERAN tier categories (simple/complex) roughly correspond to talents that cost 2 or 3 IQ points respectively, though TBH, those 'weights' are no longer relevant in my system.

And finally, if the character manages to advance to their 43rd attribute point they cross into LEGENDARY status (which is still a ways off for my group).

In the LEGENDARY Tier:
1600 XP for 43rd/44th points;
2000 XP for 45th/46th points;
2400 XP for 47st/48th points;
2200 XP for simple 'Legendary' talents or spells;
2800 XP for complex 'Legendary' talents or spells;
3000 XP for Tier 3 Powers

The two LEGENDARY tier categories (simple/complex) roughly correspond to talents that cost 3, 4 or 5 IQ points, but I'm still developing a number of new talents and spells for this tier.

Beyond that, I have guidelines (only in draft) for a theoretical MYTHIC tier game.
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Old 03-21-2022, 02:34 AM   #58
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Alternate XP progression schedule

Oddly I didn't join in this thread the first time around, as I was working on alternate conversion tables at the time.

This was one of my favorite solutions. It's such a simple formula the table is hardly needed: the first attribute increase costs 100 XP, and each subsequent increase costs 100 XP more than the last one. A side-effect of this is that it can be used regardless of what the attribute point total is for any given starting character, be they human, elf, giant, etc.

This works out to be about midway between the XP costs under original and Legacy ITL to get to a similar point of advancement, until past 40 points. Under original it cost 1,500 XP to add 8 points, but 8,300 XP under the Legacy rules. With this formula, it takes 3,600 XP to do the same.


__AP ____ XP ___ Cummulative
added __ cost __ XP spent

====== ======== ============
_1st ___ 100
_____ 100
_2nd
___ 200 _____ 300
_3rd
___ 300 _____ 600
_4th
___ 400 ___ 1,000
_5th
___ 500 ___ 1,500
_6th
___ 600 ___ 2,100
_7th
___ 700 ___ 2,800
_8th
___ 800 ___ 3,600
_9th
___ 900 ___ 4,500
10th
_ 1,000 ___ 5,500
etc...

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Old 03-21-2022, 07:58 PM   #59
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: Alternate XP progression schedule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
Oddly I didn't join in this thread the first time around, as I was working on alternate conversion tables at the time.

This was one of my favorite solutions. It's such a simple formula the table is hardly needed: the first attribute increase costs 100 XP, and each subsequent increase costs 100 XP more than the last one. A side-effect of this is that it can be used regardless of what the attribute point total is for any given starting character, be they human, elf, giant, etc.

This works out to be about midway between the XP costs under original and Legacy ITL to get to a similar point of advancement, until past 40 points. Under original it cost 1,500 XP to add 8 points, but 8,300 XP under the Legacy rules. With this formula, it takes 3,600 XP to do the same.


__AP ____ XP ___ Cummulative
added __ cost __ XP spent

====== ======== ============
_1st ___ 100
_____ 100
_2nd
___ 200 _____ 300
_3rd
___ 300 _____ 600
_4th
___ 400 ___ 1,000
_5th
___ 500 ___ 1,500
_6th
___ 600 ___ 2,100
_7th
___ 700 ___ 2,800
_8th
___ 800 ___ 3,600
_9th
___ 900 ___ 4,500
10th
_ 1,000 ___ 5,500
etc...

How well has this worked?
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Old 03-21-2022, 08:44 PM   #60
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Alternate XP progression schedule

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How well has this worked?
Untested -- just one of the models I came up with after reading this thread the first time. Figured something slower than original ITL, but faster than Legacy ITL, might be an appealing compromise for some

Personally I don't like the slower start this formula would impose on new characters, but once over 36 points it will move much faster than Legacy's rules (which strike me as abysmally slow).
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