The Traveller Mindset

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by copeab

There are other things at issue here. Over the time it takes the ships to reach planet, the J1 ship has had double the operaging costs as the J2 ship (IIRC, jump fuel cost is about the only cost doubled).

Add to that that a J2 ship, having larger J-drives, power plant and fuel tanks, will cost more than a J1 ship of the same displacement (compare the the free and far traders) but generates less revenue (less space for staterooms and cargo).

If using Bk2 1E... costs to operate on a two week schedule (ignoring Hans' inevitable complaints about that schedule)...

A 200Td pure cargo design:
Td MCr
0200.0 0008.8 Streamlined Hull StdClassDiscount
0020.0 0001.0 Bridge
0001.0 0002.0 Computer Model/1
00010.0 00010.0 JD a=J1
0001.0 0004.0 MD a=M1
0004.0 0004.0 PP a=P1
0016.0 0002.0 Staterooms x4
0000.0 0000.0 Low Berths x0
0000.0 0000.0 Emergency Low Berths x0
0000.0 0000.0 Hardpoints x0, carrying:
0000.0 0000.0 Weapons:
0000.0 0000.0 Craft:
0000.0 0000.0 Small Craft
0118.0 0000.0 Cargo
0200.0 0028.62 Totals

Financed Data
0119250.0 Monthly Payment
0002385.0 Maintenance set-aside
0025000.0 Fuel
0017000.0 Salaries 1P 1N 1E 1M
0020000.0 Life Support
0183635.0 Total Liabilities:

0000118.0 Cargo Tonnage less Baggage, Mail
0236000.0 Cargo Income less baggage
0000000.0 Mail Addition
0000000.0 High Passage income
0000000.0 Mid Passage Income
0000000.0 Low Passage Income
0236,000.0 Total Income

0052,365.0 Profit
0000778.2 Op Cost per cargo ton per jump
0000778.2 Op Cost per cargo ton per Parsec

And a J2 200 Td Pure Cargo version
0200.0 0008.8 Non-StandardStreamlined Hull StdClassDiscount
0020.0 0001.0 Bridge
0001.0 0004.0 Computer Model/1bis
0015.0 0020.0 JD b=J2
0001.0 0004.0 MD a=M1
0007.0 0008.0 PP b=P2
0016.0 0002.0 Staterooms x4
0000.0 0000.0 Low Berths x0
0000.0 0000.0 Emergency Low Berths x0
0000.0 0000.0 Hardpoints x0, carrying:
0000.0 0000.0 Weapons:
0000.0 0000.0 Craft:
0000.0 0000.0 Small Craft
0080.0 0000.0 Cargo
0200.0 0043.02 Totals

Financed Data
0179250.0 Monthly Payment
0003585.0 Maintenance set-aside
0050000.0 Fuel
0017000.0 Salaries 1P 1N 1E 1M
0020000.0 Life Support
0269835.0 Total Liabilities:

0000080.0 Cargo Tonnage less Baggage, Mail
0160000.0 Cargo Income less baggage
0000000.0 Mail Addition
0000000.0 High Passage income
0000000.0 Mid Passage Income
0000000.0 Low Passage Income
0160,000.0 Total Income

0109,835.0 Loss
0001686.5 Op Cost per cargo ton per jump
0000843.3 Op Cost per cargo ton per Parsec


And now the canonical Type A
Td MCr
0200.0 0008.8 Streamlined Hull StdClassDiscount
0020.0 0001.0 Bridge
0001.0 0002.0 Computer Model/1
00010.0 00010.0 JD a=J1
0001.0 0004.0 MD a=M1
0004.0 0004.0 PP a=P1
0040.0 0005.0 Staterooms x10
00010.0 0001.0 Low Berths x20
0000.0 0000.0 Emergency Low Berths x0
0000.0 0000.0 Hardpoints x2, carrying:
0000.0 0000.0 Weapons:
0000.0 0000.0 Craft:
0000.0 0000.0 Small Craft
0084.0 0000.0 Cargo
0200.0 0032.4 Totals

Financed Data
0135000.0 Monthly Payment
0002700.0 Maintenance set-aside
0025000.0 Fuel
0020000.0 Salaries 1P 1N 1E 1S 1M
0048000.0 Life Support
0230700.0 Total Liabilities:

0000079.0 Cargo Tonnage less Baggage, Mail
0158000.0 Cargo Income less baggage
0000000.0 Mail Addition
0050000.0 High Passage income
0000000.0 Mid Passage Income
0020000.0 Low Passage Income
0228,000.0 Total Income

0002,700.0 Loss
0001017.1 Op Cost per cargo ton per jump
0001017.1 Op Cost per cargo ton per Parsec

Note that the 200Td Type A loses money...

And the A2 (from S7)
0200.0 0008.8
0020.0 0001.0
0001.0 0004.0
0015.0 0020.0
0001.0 0004.0
0007.0 0008.0
0040.0 0005.0
0002.0 0000.2
0000.0 0000.0
0000.0 0000.0
0000.0 0000.0
0004.0 0000.6
0000.0 0000.0
0050.0 0000.0
0200.0 0046.62

Financed Data
0194251.0 Monthly Payment
0003886.0 Maintenance set-aside
0050000.0 Fuel
0020000.0 Salaries
0044800.0 Life Support
0312937.0 Total Liabilities:

0000045.0 Cargo Tonnage less Baggage, Mail
0090000.0 Cargo Income less baggage
0000000.0 Mail Addition
0050000.0 High Passage income
0000000.0 Mid Passage Income
0004000.0 Low Passage Income
0144,000.0 Total Income

0168,937.0 Loss
0002877.1 Op Cost per cargo ton per jump
0001438.6 Op Cost per cargo ton per Parsec

And that's as far as most people go before declaring it broken.

Now, a 3000Td J2 profitable mixed load ship.. note: it's even armed!
Td MCr
3000.0 0330.0 Streamlined Hull StdClassDiscount
0150.0 0015.0 Bridge
0001.0 0004.0 Computer Model/1bis
0115.0 0220.0 JD x=J2
0029.0 0060.0 MD q=M1
0067.0 0088.0 PP x=P2
0248.0 0031.0 Staterooms x62
0000.0 0000.0 Low Berths x0
0008.0 0000.8 Emergency Low Berths x8
0001.0 0000.2 Hardpoints x1, carrying: Turrets Sx1
0000.0 0000.5 Weapons: PLas x1
0000.0 0000.0 Craft:
0000.0 0000.0 Small Craft
1761.0 0000.0 Cargo
3000.0 0674.64 Totals

Financed Data
02811000.0 Monthly Payment
00056220.0 Maintenance set-aside
00610000.0 Fuel
00083300.0 Salaries CO XO 1P 1N 7E 4S 1M 1G 3A 10O
00252000.0 Life Support
03812520.0 Total Liabilities:

00001724.0 Cargo Tonnage less Baggage, Mail
03448000.0 Cargo Income less baggage
00050,000.0 Mail Addition
00320000.0 High Passage income
00000000.0 Mid Passage Income
00000000.0 Low Passage Income
03,818,000.0 Total Income

00005,480.0 Profit
00000998.5 Op Cost per cargo ton per jump
00000499.3 Op Cost per cargo ton per Parsec

The gunner and mail are important...

Really, it is possible to build J2 shipping under Bk2 that can carry for KCr1/cargo ton. (and thus KCr10 per HP and KCr1 per MP).

Smaller ships will have to pay that.... but note also, the J2 3Ktd is a TL15 ship...

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

The only situations where J1 ships have a clear advantage over J2 ships is over a distance of 1 parsec.

Almost all of my Traveller stuff is 500 miles away, but IIRC there are many places in the Spinward Marches where J1 is sufficient to visit multiple worlds. Your situation seems non-trivial.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by copeab

Almost all of my Traveller stuff is 500 miles away, but IIRC there are many places in the Spinward Marches where J1 is sufficient to visit multiple worlds. Your situation seems non-trivial.

J1 is sufficient to visit any place on a main. But it isn't economic if the goods it carries are to be carried more than one parsec.


Hans

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

If using Bk2 1E... costs to operate on a two week schedule (ignoring Hans' inevitable complaints about that schedule)...

When comparing the efficiency of different jump capacities, I would think that the shedule was almost irrelevant as long as it was the same for both ships.

As for the rest of your post, my eyes glazed over and I failed to extract the salient point from the mass of information.

Of course, the moment you say 'Bk 2 1E', you're leaving the OTU far behind, or rather the other way around.


Hans

[copeab]

He also forgot berthing fees;)

[far_trader]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

J1 is sufficient to visit any place on a main. But it isn't economic if the goods it carries are to be carried more than one parsec.


Hans

Put another way: Goods traveling 2 parsecs will NOT go by J1 x2 but by J2 x1.

Free Traders (and other J1 ships) do not compete with Far Traders (and other J2 ships).

Far Traders may compete with Free Trades on a J1 trip, but they'll make less net than the Free Traders, though it will be better than not shipping anything if forced to make a J1. And the goods they carry (unless speculative goods owned by the operator) will not be going beyond J1.

...all presuming (which I don't for a second) that the basic trade rules were meant to apply to anything except a player character operated J1 200ton type A Free Trader built with Book 2 rules. Did I forget any caveats? ;)

[Mike Wightman]

Just one ;)

The trading rules also apply to a 100t scout/courier with its potential to carry 3t of cargo and 3 passengers.

[far_trader]

Originally Posted by Mike Wightman

Just one ;)

The trading rules also apply to a 100t scout/courier with its potential to carry 3t of cargo and 3 passengers.

Not in my O'ishTU :) Unless one of the "passengers" is a Merchant. Not just any JoT can do legal tra... oooohhh, right ;) yeah, ok, "small package trade"... sure they can do that ;)

...but seriously in my TU only those with some Merchant background have the Free-Trader license to engage in legal trade, i.e. the Book 2 trade stuff, which really only applies to J1 Free Traders imo. That means passengers and cargo/freight. Just about anyone can speculate and try to buy low and sell high though. Good luck with that ;)

...however that Detached Duty type S and the not-quite-ex-Scout attached to it is another thing entirely, at least in MTU and imo is (or should be) in the OTU. That is the character has the ship at the convenience of the IISS and is expected to put it to good use. Good IISS approved use. Surveying worlds, making courier runs, giving other Scouts lifts between bases and assignments, helping Citizens and subjects throughout their travels, etc. etc... NOT engaging in illicit "trade" or paying "passenger" service, or even worse making mercenary raids and such. Never mind engaging in piracy. If the DD Scout doesn't give a good accounting of their use of the ship, and part of that is checking in regularly for debriefing sessions and picking up waiting DD missions, then they will find themselves without a ship... if they're lucky. If they're unlucky, or particularly negligent or worse, they may get a one way trip in cryo to the local Imperial Prison as the newest guest.

...but you know, that's probably just me ;)

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by far_trader

Not in my O'ishTU :) Unless one of the "passengers" is a Merchant. Not just any JoT can do legal tra... oooohhh, right ;) yeah, ok, "small package trade"... sure they can do that ;)

...but seriously in my TU only those with some Merchant background have the Free-Trader license to engage in legal trade, i.e. the Book 2 trade stuff, which really only applies to J1 Free Traders imo. That means passengers and cargo/freight. Just about anyone can speculate and try to buy low and sell high though. Good luck with that ;)

...however that Detached Duty type S and the not-quite-ex-Scout attached to it is another thing entirely, at least in MTU and imo is (or should be) in the OTU. That is the character has the ship at the convenience of the IISS and is expected to put it to good use. Good IISS approved use. Surveying worlds, making courier runs, giving other Scouts lifts between bases and assignments, helping Citizens and subjects throughout their travels, etc. etc... NOT engaging in illicit "trade" or paying "passenger" service, or even worse making mercenary raids and such. Never mind engaging in piracy. If the DD Scout doesn't give a good accounting of their use of the ship, and part of that is checking in regularly for debriefing sessions and picking up waiting DD missions, then they will find themselves without a ship... if they're lucky. If they're unlucky, or particularly negligent or worse, they may get a one way trip in cryo to the local Imperial Prison as the newest guest.

...but you know, that's probably just me ;)

Naw, it's not just you. I've had several ex-scout PC's refuse the ship. Just park it at the base, and walk away. In part, because it is such a powerful hook. But then, I also warn new players that a scout PC is never let out, just allowed leave of indefinite duration.

As for the salient data - yes, I forgot berthing fees - which add under a credit per ton on anything over 100 tons cargo - in other words, it's a trivial cost. And not always assured. But I should add it to the spreadsheet. Even on a small cargo vessel, it's not adding a whole lot of cost.

The salient points which Hans missed are
1) that the canon pricing does work for J2 for 3000Td ships, at TL15, using Bk2 design. Your J2 shipping should thus all be 3000Td, and can be undercharging and (due to volumes) making a profit. Actually, a lot more space could be profitable passengers if one allows for factors, and for the ability to buy bigger lots of spec.
2) canonical ships using canonical pricing under bk2 carry freight as a loss reduction, not as their primary goal. They carry it at the big ship rate (because they can), provided they make up the difference with spec. Empty space earns nothing- it's a KCr1.1-1.4 mistake on a J1.
3) showing the relative costs of operation for 200 ton J1 and J2 freighters. The costs are not doubled. They are actually higher for J2 than 2x J1. But since a J2 design can do it for the same price as a smaller J1 doing a J1, it will drive the market price.

Bk2 designs are really where the trade rules work... and spec is how you make money.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by far_trader

...but seriously in my TU only those with some Merchant background have the Free-Trader license to engage in legal trade, i.e. the Book 2 trade stuff, which really only applies to J1 Free Traders imo.

That seems to run quite counter to the free trade attitude of the 3I.

...however that Detached Duty type S and the not-quite-ex-Scout attached to it is another thing entirely, at least in MTU and imo is (or should be) in the OTU. That is the character has the ship at the convenience of the IISS and is expected to put it to good use. Good IISS approved use.

I didn't restrict scout ship use nearly so much. I saw it as an easy way for the PCs to travel from world to world.