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Old 11-02-2014, 06:03 PM   #11
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Penalty for for having to shoot down a tube?

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Originally Posted by BraselC5048 View Post
Well, -9 for target size, -2 for range, +2 for round target, that's -9. And that's what counts against the 22 + 2 x Acc limit. It's just at the limit of what the character can do, so -10 modifier on top of that would be pretty hard, too hard in fact. -8 is doable on top of that is doable, though. Just barely. So -17 (-8 on top of range/target size) is just within what the character can do with an acceptable target number to hit.

Of course, from Tactical Shooting, the character's getting +8 from non-combat bonuses, and of course +1 for All out Attack. Weapon Bond adds another +1.

Ok then, that's what I needed to know.
You don't get the +1 from All Out Attack: Determined if you can't make a sighted shot. You probably also shouldn't get the +3 for known range, since presumably that is based on setting your sights for the correct range.
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:46 PM   #12
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Default Re: Penalty for for having to shoot down a tube?

The tricky thing about this is that you have to shoot from the right spot, which is not a consideration that marksmanship normally has to deal with. If you are within 1" (minus the diameter of your bullet) of the right position and holding your weapon within 1" (minus calibre) of the right height it is no harder than (in fact mechanically the same as) shooting the 2" far end of the pipe at 5 yards range. If you are 14" out of position in any direction the task is impossible however you point your firearm. If you are 7" out of position the width of the effective target is down to 1". (Assuming a 9mm weapon.)

A tall character might have to stoop slightly, a short one stand on a box.
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Last edited by Agemegos; 11-02-2014 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:08 PM   #13
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Default Re: Penalty for for having to shoot down a tube?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
You don't get the +1 from All Out Attack: Determined if you can't make a sighted shot. You probably also shouldn't get the +3 for known range, since presumably that is based on setting your sights for the correct range.
Then the +3 could only apply to weapons that have adjustable sights in the first place. A lot of them do not, for example, a heck of a lot of SMGs's, and a large number of (most?) pistols. There's no indication in Tactical Shooting that only people shooting those weapons get the benefit. Let alone nearly all early TL 5 and late TL 4 weapons. (The last several decades of the flintlock era, and early 1830-1860's rifle/muskets.)

Also, I'm assuming that the penalty for shooting down a tube does not count against the 22+2x Acc limitation, it's only a penalty for getting lined up correctly. Besides, he's had plenty of chances to practice recently anyway with just this type of shot, pretty much exactly the same setup, before having to actually do it for the competition, so I figure that's good for at least +2 ,if not the full +3 for range and speed anyway. In this case it's a matter of already knowing where the weapon has to be from practice, rather than setting your sights for it. Same range/speed bonus, but just for a slightly different reason.

Besides, having a known speed of zero would be a big benefit over a combat situation, where it would have an unknown speed and be erratically moving. At short ranges, the target being stationary would be the main source of the +3, since at 1-10 yards there's nothing to set on the sights anyway, only once you get out to long range.

EDIT: Also, he doesn't need the +1 for AoA to get acceptable odds, but the +3 from range/speed being known/practice he does.

EDIT Again: If I decide to make a DX-based skill roll to line up properly, instead of an extra penalty to the shot, or just with the penalty and just to show off, at I figure a penalty for size of area the weapon needed to be in, would the +2 for round target apply or not? Just throwing out ideas.

Last edited by BraselC5048; 11-02-2014 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 11-02-2014, 08:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: Penalty for for having to shoot down a tube?

Should I take the width of the projectile into account, or simply assume that a shot that hits does so entirely within the target area?
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:05 PM   #15
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Default Re: Penalty for for having to shoot down a tube?

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Originally Posted by BraselC5048 View Post
Should I take the width of the projectile into account, or simply assume that a shot that hits does so entirely within the target area?
A 9mm slug is 0.354" in diameter. Which is 17% of the width of your target. It's not enough to change the size modifier in GURPS, but it does make a significant difference to the trigonometry of working out how big the zone is that you have to shoot out of.
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: Penalty for for having to shoot down a tube?

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Originally Posted by BraselC5048 View Post
Then the +3 could only apply to weapons that have adjustable sights in the first place. A lot of them do not, for example, a heck of a lot of SMGs's, and a large number of (most?) pistols. There's no indication in Tactical Shooting that only people shooting those weapons get the benefit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Shooting p. 27
Setting sights to claim the +3 Acc for knowing the range takes a Ready maneuver; Lightning Fingers or auto-adjusting sights make this a free action. If using a scope, the +3 adds to its Acc bonus. This rule benefits not only sniper rifles, but also machine guns and other weapons with adjustable sights.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to give weapons without adjustable sights the bonus, or allow the bonus on unsighted shots and then require that you use the sights only if you have them. Besides there's definitely a benefit to correctly adjusting your sights on the firing range and there's no other bonus that represents this.

Quote:
Besides, he's had plenty of chances to practice recently anyway with just this type of shot, pretty much exactly the same setup, before having to actually do it for the competition,
This sounds more like a Trick Shooter perk (GURPS Gun Fu p. 22).
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Old 11-03-2014, 03:39 PM   #17
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Default Re: Penalty for for having to shoot down a tube?

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
A 9mm slug is 0.354" in diameter. Which is 17% of the width of your target. It's not enough to change the size modifier in GURPS, but it does make a significant difference to the trigonometry of working out how big the zone is that you have to shoot out of.
For a different shot, where the target area and the projectile aren't all that much difference in size (aiming allowed this time), and it matters if you go outside the target area, once again, should I assume that a hit means the round is completely within that target area, or only that the center of the projectile is within the target area on a hit? Hopefully the former.
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Old 11-03-2014, 04:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: Penalty for for having to shoot down a tube?

The rules are that you mustn't hit the sides. That means the bullet has to be completely within the circle at both ends. Not just centred within the circle.
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Old 11-03-2014, 05:50 PM   #19
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Default Re: Penalty for for having to shoot down a tube?

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
The rules are that you mustn't hit the sides. That means the bullet has to be completely within the circle at both ends. Not just centred within the circle.
And what I'm wondering (it's not the shooting down the tube one) is if the entire bullet is already assumed to be in the circle by just scoring a hit, if there's a penalty to getting it entirely within the target, but it does not count against the 22+2x Acc limit, if it's a penalty that does count against the 22+2x Acc limit, or if the penalty is the size modifier of the difference between bullet size and target size. I'm hoping for the first one, would be happy with the second one, and hoping it's not the last two.

(The 22+2x Acc limit is from Tactical Shooting, and says that's the upper limit on the accuracy of the weapon, and that range and target size penalties, counted against that level can never be improved by aiming or anything else.)
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Old 11-03-2014, 05:58 PM   #20
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Default Re: Penalty for for having to shoot down a tube?

I would just subtract the bullet diameter from the target diameter.
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