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Old 02-20-2014, 03:23 AM   #1
Tyneras
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
Default [LTC3] Earning my pay.

Okay, I love LTC3 and used it for a lot of world building. I always assumed that costs of material and labor and monthly pay for the craftsman would work out.

The problem is it isn't.

After subtracting the material costs, I can't make a craftsman actually earn their monthly salary. At high end work, I only earn 75% of the salary, at low end work only 55%. Apprentices don't seem to help, they barely break even and only when they charge the same hourly rates as the master for half or less his pay.

The only way the numbers seem to work out is by dropping the .75 and .55 cost multiplies completely.

I must be missing something.
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:41 AM   #2
The Benj
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Re: [LTC3] Earning my pay.

I thought the pay rates were meant to already be your take-home, after things like materials and taxes.
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Old 02-20-2014, 06:56 AM   #3
Turhan's Bey Company
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Default Re: [LTC3] Earning my pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
After subtracting the material costs, I can't make a craftsman actually earn their monthly salary. At high end work, I only earn 75% of the salary, at low end work only 55%. Apprentices don't seem to help, they barely break even and only when they charge the same hourly rates as the master for half or less his pay.
You're mostly getting it, I think. What you may be missing is the rationale underlying the labor rate modifiers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTC3, p. 23
Most craftwork is carried out at workshops employing
a mixture of craftsmen, apprentices, and unskilled workers.
Thus, the actual rate will be lower than the pay of the
appropriate craft professional
So while the hourly rate for craft work is lower than the master craftsman's hourly pay rate, he's also not doing most of that work. Rather, he's effectively billing the customer for a bit of his labor and a lot of labor from low-paid underlings who are stoking fires, sharpening tools, toting barges, lifting bales, and so on. Let's follow that ladder example through:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTC3, p. 23
Total materials cost is therefore $60.75. This means
the labor costs $29.25. A carpenter at TL4 makes $790, so the
hourly rate for basic carpentry is ($790 0.55)/200 = $2.17.
Thus, the ladder calls for $29.25/$2.17 = 13.5 man-hours of
effort. A carpenter and five assistants could make one from
lumber in just over two hours.
There are 13.5 hours of work in that ladder, but the carpenter isn't doing most of them. Here, he's doing about a sixth of the work, or 2.25 hours. His time costs $3.95/hr., or about $8.89 of the labor cost. The other $20.36 or 11.25 hours of labor are contributed by low-wage assistants. That comes out to about $1.81/hr., which is plausible if a bit on the low side for a Struggling job. This also means that, since the carpenter only spends a couple of hours on a ladder, he can work on a lot of ladders in the course of a month (200/2.25 = ~89), as long as he's got the rest of his workshop staff backing him up.

Now, this does mean that a lone craftsman, doing everything by himself, can't compete. He's wasting a lot of valuable time carrying out tasks any twelve-year-old apprentice or dim but strong-backed adult could take care of. Most production has historically been performed by small workshops where a skilled and therefore relatively expensive specialist does his specialized work, and un- and semi-skilled tasks are performed on the cheap, and the rules reflect that. If you want to play a craftsman, expect to take on assistants.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:25 AM   #4
thom
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Default Re: [LTC3] Earning my pay.

Hmmm, so I'm trying to figure out how long to make a set of ordinary clothes using these rules.

At TL3 and Status 0, a set of ordinary clothes is 20% of the COL: $600 x .2 = $120

From LTC3 p. 22, using 2 lbs of cloth material at $1.15/lb = $3 (rounded up for convenience)

So we have $120 - $3 = $117 in labor cost

A Tailor's monthly rate is $750, so the hourly rate is ($750 x 0.55)/200 = $2.06

So $117 in total labor cost divided by the $2.06 hourly rate means it takes 56.73 hours to make a set of ordinary clothing? Does that sound right?

Admittedly that is for one person only, but really, how many tailors could work on one set of clothes at a time? 2 or 3 max?
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:47 AM   #5
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Default Re: [LTC3] Earning my pay.

Quote:
Ordinary Clothes: One complete
outfit, ranging in quality from castoff
rags to designer fashions, depending
on Status. At minimum: undergarments,
plus a tunic, blouse, or shirt
with hose, skirt, or trousers – or a long
tunic, robe, or dress – and suitable
footwear
. 20% of cost of living; 2 lbs.
The suitable footwear will take most of that time, I suspect.
And raise the material prices (leather , I guess ? ).
Also, you are using the price for very rough cloth, suitable for sacks and
coarse cloaks;
Status 0 deserve better cloth, several times more expansive ! ( LTC3 p 22 and 30) :3$/pound assuming the cloth is not dyed...
And in most weather, you can add a light coat and an hat to the set !

You are also using the 'generic set ' price from basic set, it would probably be more accurate to use individual items prices if you want to make a precise calculation !

Celjabba

Last edited by Celjabba; 02-20-2014 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:59 AM   #6
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: [LTC3] Earning my pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Hmmm, so I'm trying to figure out how long to make a set of ordinary clothes using these rules.

At TL3 and Status 0, a set of ordinary clothes is 20% of the COL: $600 x .2 = $120

From LTC3 p. 22, using 2 lbs of cloth material at $1.15/lb = $3 (rounded up for convenience)

So we have $120 - $3 = $117 in labor cost

A Tailor's monthly rate is $750, so the hourly rate is ($750 x 0.55)/200 = $2.06

So $117 in total labor cost divided by the $2.06 hourly rate means it takes 56.73 hours to make a set of ordinary clothing? Does that sound right?
A set of ordinary clothes is probably not made from sackcloth. And not made with zero wastage of cloth either. I'd say the material cost for even the most basic set clothing would be more like $6-8...and that's without any dye costs, which probably makes it Status -1 at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Admittedly that is for one person only, but really, how many tailors could work on one set of clothes at a time? 2 or 3 max?
A typical set of clothes is going to be more than one piece, so 2 or 3 is easy to achieve.

Are you surprised you'd need a few days lead time for a set of clothes to be made without the tailors going to extreme efforts?
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:00 AM   #7
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [LTC3] Earning my pay.

Even with very high quality cloth, at $7.16/lb (LTC3 p30), you're still looking at over $105 in labor, or 51 hours. Of course, making clothing was a very long process prior to TL5, so that might actually not be too far off. Higher status clothing is probably made by tailors with higher wages, with artistic embellishments and luxury fabrics boosting the cost markedly.
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:09 AM   #8
thom
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Default Re: [LTC3] Earning my pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Are you surprised you'd need a few days lead time for a set of clothes to be made without the tailors going to extreme efforts?
Not really; I just wanted to have this "independently verified" by my GURPS Subject Matter Experts, so I could blame y'all when my PCs scream "Why can't I have my Status 1 clothes ready tomorrow for the Prince's party?"

<sg>
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:20 AM   #9
Turhan's Bey Company
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Default Re: [LTC3] Earning my pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
A Tailor's monthly rate is $750, so the hourly rate is ($750 x 0.55)/200 = $2.06
Two rules-based quibbles: First, don't forget that the listed salaries are for TL4. A TL3 tailor is paid less. See the table at the top of p. 45. Second, that labor rate assumes a maximum number of assistants. A higher labor rate modifier may apply. (Not saying that it must, but it possibly can. A judgement call is not just recommended but required here.)

Speaking of judgement calls, the "Status 0 clothes" can be rationalized in a number of ways which change the equation. For example, the basic cloth is, as the materials table notes, coarse sackcloth. That might be OK for people with negative Status, but at Status 0 (a well-to-do peasant or urban freeman), something better is surely in order, so there's likely a CF on the materials there. It might also include a bit of decoration (say, a little cheap color or some embroidery around the cuffs and collar), so there could be another hidden CF of labor-intensive/materials-light decorative work. However, there's sufficient diversity in how that suit can be broken down that working that out has to be an exercise for the interested player.

Finally, I admit to the game-ness of it all. The crafting rules are a late addition perched atop an edifice of existing prices which may or may not be built on the same assumptions. Note, for example, that that those Status 0 clothes cost double and weigh a fraction as much as a full suit of cloth armor. By weight, there's a price difference of something like a factor of 16. There's a limit to how well a playable system can reconcile such differences. When checking against existing equipment, strong preference was given to making sure that we got not-unbalancing results for items of utility for adventurers. For more esoteric or quotidian items, players will have to consider two possibilities: 1) that the item in question is more complicated than it appears and, 2) GURPS is not a flawless reality simulator, and sometimes legacy issues in item pricing and the limitations of a one-size-fits-all crafting system may mean that whacky results will arise.
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I've been making pointlessly shiny things, and I've got some gaming-related stuff as well as 3d printing designs.

Buy my Warehouse 23 stuff, dammit!

Last edited by Turhan's Bey Company; 02-20-2014 at 09:29 AM. Reason: And by "lower," of course, I mean "higher."
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:25 AM   #10
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Default Re: [LTC3] Earning my pay.

It can probably be done in one day, dividing the job between one shoemaker and assistant, (shoes/boots and belt) one tailor and assistants, (coat, trouser and shirt) and one seamstress (undergarnments, handkerchief, ...). It may/will involve a price increase for rushing the job.

Celjabba

Last edited by Celjabba; 02-20-2014 at 09:33 AM.
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