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Old 06-15-2024, 08:01 AM   #11
King Leonidas
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Default Re: Recoil for RoF 1 weapons

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Rcl wouldn't factor into either of these - the first uses Rapid Strike, the second Extra Attack. Rcl only comes into play when you're resolving multiple shots with a single roll.
ahh alright. that could probably be done with straight pull bolt actions or perhaps lever action rifles?
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Old 06-15-2024, 08:31 AM   #12
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Recoil for RoF 1 weapons

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Originally Posted by King Leonidas View Post
ahh alright. that could probably be done with straight pull bolt actions or perhaps lever action rifles?
Lever-actions (and pump-actions for that matter) seem to consistently be marked as RoF 2 in High-Tech, so they already have Rcl potentially coming into play. Techniques similar to Fanning and Thumbing might be possible to do with those to increase their RoF, particularly for slam-fire designs (indeed, checking the entry for the Winchester Model 1897, slamfiring it boosts RoF to 3). Straight-pull bolt actions might be eligible for a similar Technique to allow them to fire at more than RoF 1 (granted, there's only one such weapon in HT, and it's an underbarrel shotgun to boot, so it may be that typical ones have the same RoF 2 as lever-/pump-action weapons).
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Old 06-15-2024, 05:20 PM   #13
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Recoil for RoF 1 weapons

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I see no one has mentioned personal scale weapons with multiple barrrels yet. Mounted weapons more than 1 to a turret are a similar case.
A personal weapon with multiple barrels has RoF >1, so it's irrelevant to the question. It wouldn't necessarily have the same rcl as a single-barreled version - rcl is a function of the whole weapon, not just the round, and a multibarrel weapon will be more massive.

Same for a multibarrel heavy assembly, though also any weapon of that kind makes a mockery of the rcl mechanic anyway.
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Old 06-15-2024, 05:59 PM   #14
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Recoil for RoF 1 weapons

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
A personal weapon with multiple barrels has RoF >1, so it's irrelevant to the question. It wouldn't necessarily have the same rcl as a single-barreled version - rcl is a function of the whole weapon, not just the round, and a multibarrel weapon will be more massive.

Same for a multibarrel heavy assembly, though also any weapon of that kind makes a mockery of the rcl mechanic anyway.
Turning a single barrel into amulti-barrel would affect Rcl in complex potentially complex ways but it is better starting with soem num ber than doign so with no numbers to guide you.

Also in your reply I see examples of the persistant confusion of Newtoian equal and opposite reactions aka "recoil" in common English with the Gurps weapon stat of "Rcl". The two are not strongly related.

Rcl is about the dispersal of multiple shots when a weapon is fired more than one time per second and how difficult it is to hit one target with some or all of those multiple shots.

Newtonizn actions upon a firing living being or even a vehicular mount are more accurately figured into the MinST stat.

<sigh>I know it's another example of Gurps v. English but RCL and "recoil" just are not the same thing.
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Old 06-15-2024, 06:08 PM   #15
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Recoil for RoF 1 weapons

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Turning a single barrel into amulti-barrel would affect Rcl in complex potentially complex ways but it is better starting with soem num ber than doign so with no numbers to guide you.
I contest it isn't really, since you have no actual information about how to use these things.
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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Also in your reply I see examples of the persistant confusion of Newtoian equal and opposite reactions aka "recoil" in common English with the Gurps weapon stat of "Rcl". The two are not strongly related.

Rcl is about the dispersal of multiple shots when a weapon is fired more than one time per second and how difficult it is to hit one target with some or all of those multiple shots.

Newtonizn actions upon a firing living being or even a vehicular mount are more accurately figured into the MinST stat.

<sigh>I know it's another example of Gurps v. English but RCL and "recoil" just are not the same thing.
No, you don't see that.

But you did helpfully note how a 1-shot weapon cannot have an rcl value, because the number describes a counterfactual event.
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Old 06-15-2024, 09:50 PM   #16
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Recoil for RoF 1 weapons

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post

No, you don't see that.

.
I see it but more importantly hunt up the Word of Kromm about Rcl. You should be able to find him saying that ROF 1 weapons are given Rcl stats for use if they are somehow modified into ROF 2+ weapons.
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Old 06-15-2024, 10:19 PM   #17
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Recoil for RoF 1 weapons

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I see it but more importantly hunt up the Word of Kromm about Rcl. You should be able to find him saying that ROF 1 weapons are given Rcl stats for use if they are somehow modified into ROF 2+ weapons.
Yeah, here is the ur-post about it. If the RCL is not listed then RCL is 1 for the purposes of paranatural or cinematic enhancements IF the RCL is not directly listed within that trait (such as Fanning or Thumbing).
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Old 06-16-2024, 03:16 AM   #18
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Recoil for RoF 1 weapons

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
But you did helpfully note how a 1-shot weapon cannot have an rcl value, because the number describes a counterfactual event.
Good thing GURPS campaigns aren't restricted to facts. Further, a Rcl listing for a 1-shot weapon essentially future-proofs the statline so that if, in the future, there are rules published that make use of Rcl in a way that it can apply to such weapons, you'll already have access to the relevant stat. It appears that's already happened to a limited extent with Fanning (when applied to single-action revolvers) and more generally with GURPS Power Ups 1: Imbuements. I could have seen it potentially factoring into the "Follow-Up Shots" rule in Tactical Shooting, or example.
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Last edited by Varyon; 06-16-2024 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 06-16-2024, 12:26 PM   #19
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Recoil for RoF 1 weapons

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Good thing GURPS campaigns aren't restricted to facts. Further, a Rcl listing for a 1-shot weapon essentially future-proofs the statline so that if, in the future, there are rules published that make use of Rcl in a way that it can apply to such weapons, you'll already have access to the relevant stat. It appears that's already happened to a limited extent with Fanning (when applied to single-action revolvers) and more generally with GURPS Power Ups 1: Imbuements. I could have seen it potentially factoring into the "Follow-Up Shots" rule in Tactical Shooting, or example.
But, as Fred Brackin was condescending to point out, the behavior of the gun in rapid fire is the only thing rcl means. Which ruins using it for other purposes. Maybe that's why the ideas about using it for other purposes tend not to materialize.

Which means that if how the gun behaves in rapid fire is 'it doesn't', no value can be determined. At best, you're switching to a different definition without notice...and without any documentation of what that definition is.


Plus, do you actually think LT even tried to figure out what the shot distribution of a muzzle-loading musket made semi-automatic by literal magic would be?
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Old 06-16-2024, 03:50 PM   #20
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Recoil for RoF 1 weapons

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But, as Fred Brackin was condescending to point out, the behavior of the gun in rapid fire is the only thing rcl means.
The behavior of the projectiles fired by the gun rather than the gun itself. Newtonian reactions of firing upon te gun itself are never specified as being the source of the level of Rcl. Nothing is. Rcl is about an effect rather than a cause. Effect rather than cause is fairly cmmon in Gurps.
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