Rules you ignore/alter.

[MIB.6361]

Originally Posted by Plane

If it has a penalty off the base weapon skill, that sounds like you're talking about a Technique, and techniques always "default" to the skill they're based on.

You're correct, I meant technique. I've corrected the post.

Originally Posted by Anders

In your game, what penalty did you use?

IIRC, I based it off of the same defaults as Aggressive Parry.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by naloth

I've always played such that passive abilities (spines, DR, claws) are noticeable but not necessarily obvious. That means you could look for it, test for it, and examine for it. Scaly guy has a skin condition, but you can't tell if that's worth DR without some additional tests. Conversely, if you have experience with other scaly skin you could guesstimate if it's like something you know.

Adding visible makes it more obvious and easier to detect. Adding low signature makes it harder to detect and figure out.

The bottom line is you don't look normal if you have lots of DR. It has a noticeable effect that sets you apart even if people don't realize they are looking at the manifestation of DR.

It's not reaction penalties (they're just as handsome, etc) so it's got to be perceived as something. I don't know why we can't just say "you look tough, but clothing can hide how tough your skin looks" because in most case even if you had leathery skin, it might just be visible on your face, which might be hard to make out in the shadows of your fedora... isn't that how Croc and Gray Hulk would often dress?

That's not to say high DR automatically makes you look like those two (they'd have appearance/reaction atop) just that perhaps higher DR ought to be slightly progressivly visible/feelable.

If it weren't then for example would a turtle have DR (torso only -10% visible -10%) since a shell is clearly identifiable as more armored than the rest of the body? Location-specific DR's visibility as it pertains to locations which lack DR is a major aspect of roleplaying what enemies will aim for.

Psychic Armor (Psionic Powers pg 25) could be an interesting precedent here.

It is defined as a passive ability yet buys Low Signature. Enemies have to roll Per-4 (or win Per-4 against Acting) to perceive you deflected/reduced damage. The implication being that if you don't take Low Sig, there's no roll like this for enemies to understand damage is reduced/deflected.

One weird thing about PA is "no effect on attacks that do not do damage" doesn't seem to be represented under the hood, I would expect based on it's stats that it give a bonus to the HT roll to resist psychic Afflictions too.

This and Astral Armor (PP26) don't require skill rolls (unless wanting to do a power defense) whereas EK Shield (PP23) does since it has 'Requires IQ roll' which a psi technique can sub for.

EK Shield specifies rolling each time you're hit, which SHOULD changes it from a passive to an active technique (even though it's not an "Active Defense" technique which uses up a defense and prohibits using a Power Defense) however it says at the end "This is a passive ability." which is confusing. Perhaps the "constant attack" response (one IQ roll per minute) is passive while the "per attack" response (possibly one or even more IQ rolls per second?) is active?

PK Shield (PP56) is similarly defined as 'passive' at the end despite Requires IQ roll making it switchable and thus active per GURPS Powers.

PP17's "Exclusive" limitation for See Invisible changes SI from passive to active, would that mean it's perceivable to muggles too?

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Plane

isn't that how Croc and Gray Hulk would often dress?

Yes, but green paint that Lou Ferrigno make him look different without giving him the DR he's supposed to have as the Hulk. You skin can look like an elephant's and be either harder or softer. Saying that it has a physical effect doesn't necessarily mean it's obvious what that translate into in game terms.

If it weren't then for example would a turtle have DR (torso only -10% visible -10%) since a shell is clearly identifiable as more armored than the rest of the body? Location-specific DR's visibility as it pertains to locations which lack DR is a major aspect of roleplaying what enemies will aim for.

You might be able to guess that the shell is harder, but my prior statement is that you'd notice that different areas just look different. You wouldn't automatically know if the leathery skin is harder than the shell or vice versa. Adding a limitation more obviously DR and more obviously stand out.

It is defined as a passive ability yet buys Low Signature. Enemies have to roll Per-4 (or win Per-4 against Acting) to perceive you deflected/reduced damage. The implication being that if you don't take Low Sig, there's no roll like this for enemies to understand damage is reduced/deflected.

Sure. It's less obvious what it does both prior to and in use.

[ravenfish]

I think variable modifiers for obviousness of DR can make sense. Superman has DR with no signature, so crooks waste turns of combat emptying their guns at him (and then waste another turn of combat throwing the empty gun at him) rather than running, taking hostages, or doing anything else that would actually help. I have not read many comics, but I presume when facing an obviously armored opponent like the Thing, opponents are quicker to realize bullets don't work, and either attempt to escape or reach for the dynamite.

[khorboth]

I just got reminded of another altered rule in another thread. We generally have every humanoid get knockback at1 hex per 8 points of damage. Doubled in supers games.

The added realism of RAW isn't worth the slowdown of the calculation in my opinion.

[Plane]

One thing regarding active/passive ability distinction that's interesting is Power Block. P168 (middle column) initially describes it:

"those with powers can “reinforce” normally passive defensive abilities"

One might take that as meaning you can't power block with "normally active defensive abilities"...

P169 (left column) however:

"Power Block counts as an active use of the defending ability, even if that ability is normally passive."

The word "if" makes it sound like passive isn't an absolute requirement for power blocking, and that you could attempt it with active abilities too.

P168 (right column) "the defending ability can’t have the Active Defense limitation" might instead be what is meant by the middle column's intro for Power-Block, "passive abilities" trying to communicate "abilities that don't already use up an active defence" in a way that might've been better phrased.

The use of Power Block in Psionic Powers does seem to allow it for active abilities. PB is not a term actually used but PP8 Power Defenses ("For a defensive advantage, success doubles the benefits") is describing the same effect as as Power Block.

Unlike Powers, Psionic Powers doesn't seem to mention active/passive distinction for the ability to use it. That's fine with me, personally, since P169L indicates either is fine even if P169M does not.

PP8-9 doesn't even mention "Active Defense" modifier mutual exclusivity, so in theory if you went purely by this (ignoring GURPS Powers writeup) you might in theory be able to Power Defense (Block) with DR (Active Defense -40%) if you took AOD:Double. The first defense to activate the ability (as normal) and the 2nd being to try and double the ability. Allowing that sounds pretty balanced IMO.

P163 also has an interesting note at the end:

"Observers must always roll if the ability has the Low Signature enhancement;"

I don't understand the context very well though, except for that last paragraph opening with:

If there’s any doubt as to whether a potential witness notices the abili-
ty

But I don't know what situations would create that doubt.

As best I can wager, the situation would be "if there are obstructions, if it's not in plain sight" as being the exception to the "Observers notice them automatically, barring obstructions" situation existing on the close-combat featureless plain where you get +10 and usually hand-waive it as a no nuisance roll (presumably people inherently have "No Nuisance Rolls" for Vision if effective skill is 16? dunno).

Originally Posted by naloth

Yes, but green paint that Lou Ferrigno make him look different without giving him the DR he's supposed to have as the Hulk.

On the other hand, if your facial structure morphed from Bill Bixby's to Lou Ferrigno's, or underwent the CGI done to Jason Fleming (Mr Hyde in 2003 LOEG film) or Erica Bana (2003 hulk) or Edward Norton (2008 hulk) or Mark Ruffalo (2012 avengers/MCU hulk) you might assume they got tougher due to that heightened thickness and masculinity?

The attribute of ST might be potentially thought of as a mix of active (lifting ST and striking ST) and passive (HP) abilities. HP definitely seems inherently passive to me, yet I think we're supposed to assume that "size as represented by ST or HP" is in a sense inherently perceptible to others.

IE you probably in most (non super) cases know whether you're looking at a man with ST 7 or a man with ST 15.

If we do HP-from-ST is perceivable despite being passive, then why not allow DR (whether normal, semi-ablative or ablative) to be similarly perceptible?

Originally Posted by naloth

You skin can look like an elephant's and be either harder or softer. Saying that it has a physical effect doesn't necessarily mean it's obvious what that translate into in game terms.

I agree, but also think that might be taken for granted.

Originally Posted by naloth

You might be able to guess that the shell is harder, but my prior statement is that you'd notice that different areas just look different. You wouldn't automatically know if the leathery skin is harder than the shell or vice versa. Adding a limitation more obviously DR and more obviously stand out.

One thing that seems obvious with a turtle is that you could at least use your sense of touch to tell which part was harder, via pushing on it and one being flexible and the other being rigid.

Even without contact though, or knowing the lore of turtles, if you had a general experience with "this is what armor looks like", surely someone might be able to figure out on sight alone what a carapace is, and that it's probably more resilient than other parts?

Originally Posted by naloth

Sure. It's less obvious what it does both prior to and in use.

That's one distinction worth recognizing as well: "obvious they have an ability they could use" vs "obvious they have an ability WHILE using it".

The implication seems to be that even if DR is imperceptible while not in use (ie it's "always on" but not actually interacting with Basic Damage) the fact that it is lessening that damage IS perceptible.

So unless you took Low Signature, there would be something like an automatic success of "hey, I threw a 10 damage punch but they only look like they only took 1 HP of injury, what gives?"

B106 doesn't mention a Per-4 roll for Low Signature +10%,

This realization wouldn't necessarily mean "I know he has that DR stopped that" though, just "I know something stopped it".

Also maybe this is something unique to psychic attacks (which is what Psychic Armor works against, exclusively, being in the Anti-Psi category) having some kind of inherent awareness related to effect, whereas shootign someone with a gun would not? I'll comb through PP some more to figure that out.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Plane

"Power Block counts as an active use of the defending ability, even if that ability is normally passive."

Putting in that kind of huge text comes over as shouting, old boy. Mere italics are perfectly adequate for emphasis.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Plane

On the other hand, if your facial structure morphed from Bill Bixby's to Lou Ferrigno's, or underwent the CGI done to Jason Fleming (Mr Hyde in 2003 LOEG film) or Erica Bana (2003 hulk) or Edward Norton (2008 hulk) or Mark Ruffalo (2012 avengers/MCU hulk) you might assume they got tougher due to that heightened thickness and masculinity?

I'd call that experience helping to form an opinion. When you see someone grossly overweight do you think a) wow, they must have the superhuman ST because they are super thick or b) they are grossly out of shape? We need to learn what someone superbuff looks like.

Lately I've considered ST to be actively shown and HP to be passively visible. You can't tell someone's ST until they use it (just like an innate attack) but you can see their mass (HP) by appearance.

IE you probably in most (non super) cases know whether you're looking at a man with ST 7 or a man with ST 15.

Not really. You're extrapolating from mass how strong you believe they should be. ST has a fairly good correlation to HP, so it's generally not a bad way to form an initial guess lacking other information.

One thing that seems obvious with a turtle is that you could at least use your sense of touch to tell which part was harder, via pushing on it and one being flexible and the other being rigid.

That's sounds like an examination. It's also an active test since you're applying force to see how the material responds to force.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by naloth

You might be able to guess that the shell is harder, but my prior statement is that you'd notice that different areas just look different. You wouldn't automatically know if the leathery skin is harder than the shell or vice versa. Adding a limitation more obviously DR and more obviously stand out.

Originally Posted by naloth

I'd call that experience helping to form an opinion. When you see someone grossly overweight do you think a) wow, they must have the superhuman ST because they are super thick or b) they are grossly out of shape? We need to learn what someone superbuff looks like.

What level of 'learn' versus 'automatically know' are we talking about here? There aren't really many things that one doesn't have to learn.

But I would expect a typical character to be prepared to make the guess that if something has both hard armor plates and flexible skin, the latter is going to be less protective. They could be wrong, because they've run into a nano-engineered turtle with diamondoid fiber skin but all-natural shell. But they probably aren't.

Also, in some cases (including turtle shells to an extent) you can outright see the thickness of rigid armor slabs at their edges. Which is informative, if not perfectly so.

Originally Posted by naloth

Lately I've considered ST to be actively shown and HP to be passively visible. You can't tell someone's ST until they use it (just like an innate attack) but you can see their mass (HP) by appearance.

There are outward signs of strength that one can observe while the subject isn't currently performing feats of strength. Nearly all are relatively species specific and require informed interpretation, though.

[Kesendeja]

High Pain Threshold
3 CP per level, Maximum of four levels
Each Level grants:

• -1 Shock Penalty
• +1 HT to Resist Knockback and Stunning
• +1 to resist Physical Torture
• +1 Will to ignore pain in other situations at the GM's discretion

This has allowed for a bit more nuance in characters, and the total cost isn't that different, 12 instead of 10.