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Old 08-12-2020, 04:57 PM   #111
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Rules you ignore/alter.

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The discount for being visible is generally the same as the reaction adjustment for the template; if you're likely to surprise people with your DR, there's also the possibility of requiring a UB.
Reaction adjustment is reaction adjustment. It has nothing to do with the problem of people being able to trivially observe that you are a hard target.

UB fits when you surprise people because you are an outside context problem. It doesn't fit when you surprise people because you simply have traits that aren't superficially obvious.
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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I don't see it has a problem to treat DR as fairly obvious. You certainly shouldn't look normal if your skin can bounce lasers or bullets. Without a Low/No Signature, it certainly wouldn't pass a casual inspection.
I agree, but Anthony is explicitly taking the opposite tack.
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Old 08-12-2020, 05:13 PM   #112
awesomenessofme1
 
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Default Re: Rules you ignore/alter.

It depends on the genre. In Monster Hunters, you do explicitly need Low or No Signature for your DR to not be easily spotted, whereas in Supers (based on the templates), there's no cost difference between obvious and non-obvious DR. It's all up to the GM the exact details of how it works for a certain game.
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Old 08-12-2020, 05:22 PM   #113
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Rules you ignore/alter.

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
"No crippling bulk or appearance" =/= "No bulk or appearance" in English, does it? Or am I the one misunderstanding the Kromm quote?

I mean, we need to be careful anyway; it was a quote about Switchable, so everything needs to be understood in that context. Reading the quote, though, I just take it there's nothing about default DR that gets in your way, at least in terms of game mechanics. With exceptions for stuff such as Afflictions.

DR without No Signature or Low Signature doesn't automatically have to be cripplingly bulky, or have a crippling appearance... but I'm not seeing anything that suggests it isn't perceivable.
Have you ever actually looked at the human characters with DR on their character sheet? It isn't visible unless it's something like a switchable forcefield. (Except in the sense that it's visible that you aren't taking damage. If you had low signature DR then I'm guessing that it would be one in which you bruise and cut as if you have no protection but the damage isn't real which is kind of an interesting idea.)
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Old 08-12-2020, 05:48 PM   #114
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Default Re: Rules you ignore/alter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Reaction adjustment is reaction adjustment. It has nothing to do with the problem of people being able to trivially observe that you are a hard target.

UB fits when you surprise people because you are an outside context problem. It doesn't fit when you surprise people because you simply have traits that aren't superficially obvious.
If it's surprising to discover that an apparently unarmored target has armor, that's an outside context problem worth a UB. If it's not surprising, the fact you're not wearing armor won't strongly influence people's tactics and thus isn't worth points.
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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I agree, but Anthony is explicitly taking the opposite tack.
I make the assumption that DR follows the normal rules for advantages and if they wanted it to work differently they'd say so.
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Old 08-12-2020, 06:23 PM   #115
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Rules you ignore/alter.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Have you ever actually looked at the human characters with DR on their character sheet? It isn't visible unless it's something like a switchable forcefield.
So a Warbot or a crocodile has no visible armor?
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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
If it's surprising to discover that an apparently unarmored target has armor, that's an outside context problem worth a UB. If it's not surprising, the fact you're not wearing armor won't strongly influence people's tactics and thus isn't worth points.
Knowing it's possible for someone to have unseen armor doesn't mean that people will assume everyone has unseen armor. Case in point: modern concealable body armor exists, many people nonetheless train to fire handguns at center-mass. Wildly different case in point: people in the DC universe know it's possible for someone to be a nigh-invincible Kryptonian. Muggers do not generally carry around Kryptonite in case they accidentally assault one.
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I make the assumption that DR follows the normal rules for advantages and if they wanted it to work differently they'd say so.
I don't think the 'normal rules' have ever been as cut-and-dried as all that. To my eye, the large majority of GURPS writing gives no thought to the visibility or non-visibility of traits.
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Old 08-12-2020, 06:38 PM   #116
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Default Re: Rules you ignore/alter.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I don't think the 'normal rules' have ever been as cut-and-dried as all that. To my eye, the large majority of GURPS writing gives no thought to the visibility or non-visibility of traits.
As far as I can tell, the default assumption is that whether innate traits are visible or invisible is a cosmetic effect and not worth points unless the cosmetic effects are strong enough to cause a reaction adjustment, unnatural features, or other similar side effects. It's entirely reasonable to put something like Temporary Disadvantage (Social Stigma: Barbarian, -10%) on visible DR, or to just apply such a disadvantage outright if the DR is not switchable, but it's not built into the advantage.
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:07 PM   #117
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Rules you ignore/alter.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
So a Warbot or a crocodile has no visible armor?
The point. Missing it. Yes, you can see that a warbot is shiny and a crocodile has scales. So what? How is that a limitation for them? Getting no signature on an innate attack lets you attack without anyone figuring out where the attack came from or even noticing there was an attack without examining the victim. What would getting no signature on your DR let you do? With it's DR a Warbot looks like a killer robot. Remove its skin and it still looks like a killer robot.
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:24 PM   #118
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Rules you ignore/alter.

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
As far as I can tell, the default assumption is that whether innate traits are visible or invisible is a cosmetic effect and not worth points unless the cosmetic effects are strong enough to cause a reaction adjustment, unnatural features, or other similar side effects. It's entirely reasonable to put something like Temporary Disadvantage (Social Stigma: Barbarian, -10%) on visible DR, or to just apply such a disadvantage outright if the DR is not switchable, but it's not built into the advantage.
Yes, the social disadvantages of visible armor, if any, are not built in to the Advantage and shouldn't be. They also have absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

That assumption is (A) highly unsatisfactory to me and (B) undermined quite a bit by the No/Low Signature Enhancements and Visible Limitation. Although those modifiers only seem to expressly pertain to active abilities.

Powers 163-164 asserts that passive abilities or abilities not currently in use can never be detected without the use of special senses. That is rather obviously not the case for things like armor plating or an overt mounted weapon. Humanocentrism striking again?
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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The point. Missing it. Yes, you can see that a warbot is shiny and a crocodile has scales. So what? How is that a limitation for them? Getting no signature on an innate attack lets you attack without anyone figuring out where the attack came from or even noticing there was an attack without examining the victim. What would getting no signature on your DR let you do? With it's DR a Warbot looks like a killer robot. Remove its skin and it still looks like a killer robot.
If you have non-obvious armor, enemies may underestimate your defenses and hand you a major tactical advantage when they try and fail to take you down with insufficiently penetrating weapons. (Even if your DR is commonly known, you can leverage this if you have any ability to not be recognized.) If you have obvious armor, that will almost never happen.
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Old 08-13-2020, 12:11 AM   #119
David Johnston2
 
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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post

If you have non-obvious armor, enemies may underestimate your defenses and hand you a major tactical advantage when they try and fail to take you down with insufficiently penetrating weapons. .
Not bluddy likely Your enemies are going to attack with the weapons they have. It's not like "Visible" means "Calculable". The crocodile has a DR of what, one? two?. The mutant crocodile-man known as Crocodevil from my random supers/horror idea has skin that looks exactly the same, except he's DR 8. Godzilla doesn't look much different texture wise. He's got DR 1000, Nor can you assume just because you're looking at a robot with metal skin that you can't shoot through it. The real way you find out whether your target is bullet-proof is to actually shoot it and see how much of a ding you make. Now I'm not going to say that "looking like a rock monster" isn't worth points. But I am going to say that the point value is better represented with disadvantages like Appearance, Unnatural or Supernatural Features, and Social Stigma Freak.
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Old 08-13-2020, 12:18 AM   #120
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Rules you ignore/alter.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Have you ever actually looked at the human characters with DR on their character sheet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The point. Missing it. Yes, you can see that a warbot is shiny and a crocodile has scales. So what?
These comments are antagonistic and detracting from the conversation. Don’t post in this thread again.
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