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Old 07-16-2010, 04:28 PM   #21
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

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it's a holdover from the Everquest holy trinity
Which in turn is a holdover from D&D classes and "niche protection". Smart enemies really would bound over the fighters and crush the squishy mages that can hurt them the most, yet die quickly. A D&D DM generally has to have a selectively blind eye to the best way to achieve a TPK, so that everyone gets to play their assigned niche.

(With EQ-style healing mechanics instead of D&D, you generally kill the cleric first, since that's really where the hit points for everyone are stored.)

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keep the archer further back in the first place
Yes. If he's more than one turn's Move behind, then the front-rank tank can move back and his turn to hit the runner. Zone of control rules are for situations where the space and time scale are so large than this interception would take place in a fraction of a turn and a fraction of a hex, like operational or strategic scale wargames. GURPS has a very small scale, and so can model the interception directly.

Last edited by Anaraxes; 07-16-2010 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:52 AM   #22
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Default Re: Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Some of your problem may be with the concept of the tank fighter. That is someone in heavy armor who is primarily defensively oriented while it is an archer or mage who does the real damage. None of this works that well in Gurps.
The Mystic Knight in my DF game is a tank fighter, but works very well in GURPS. With Sacrificial Parry, Shield Block Training and Widen shield, he keeps the squishies out of trouble. He has only 1 attack, and does moderate damage when compared to the pure damage of the Swashbuckler (3 base attacks+dual weapon attack) and the Scout/Mystic Knight (Dual weapon attack with Multishot), but he can make it count, with Stealthy attack/Penetrating Weapon/Crippling Blow. he can absorb an obscene amount of punishment, thanks to heavy armor and shield, and defensive Imbuements. He can self-heal with Vampiric Strike and Energizing Defense. He uses DF taunting rules too ;)

Tanky fighters can work in GURPS, but they're not obvious to build.
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:30 AM   #23
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Default Re: Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

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Originally Posted by muranternet View Post
Thanks for responses. I guess another option is for tanky to say "Wait, and stab at anyone who does anything," which (against one opponent) will let him strike at the guy if he attacks tanky, or get an attack with no defense on a run-by. I'll dry fire test the ideas and see how it works out.

I agree it's pretty hard to tie up two people at once, but wanted to see if there was any sort of zone of control option.
Depends if the first on hit is going to die, then it is hard to get someone to be first.
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:55 AM   #24
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Default Re: Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I don't think this is a fair evaluation. A primarily defensively-oriented "tank" that isn't a potent attacker wouldn't be able to exercise area control by Wait or attack of opportunity, because their attack would be ignorable.
That is because that is an artifact of videogames.
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Old 07-17-2010, 08:01 AM   #25
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Default Re: Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I don't think this is a fair evaluation. A primarily defensively-oriented "tank" that isn't a potent attacker wouldn't be able to exercise area control by Wait or attack of opportunity, because their attack would be ignorable.
This is absolutely true, but you have to be careful about how you define "potent attacker". You don't have to be the number one source of raw damage to be the most obnoxious thing on the accessible portion of the battlefield, and a big tactical problem for the other guys.

Area Denial obviously only works if you have a constricted Area to Deny them that is the best or only point of access to whatever you're constricting - block a doorway rather than stand in the middle of the room, and they're going to have to go through you whether they want to really waste time on your armor plated hide or not. This is why people put portcullises and barred doors in doorways, not in the middles of rooms ;D so be like a portcullis that can defend itself.

Tripping is an excellent example of something that doesn't do any damage, but can seriously mess up the attackers - if you can't move past the guy because he keeps dumping everyone on their butts, where he and/or his buddies can then run them through at their leisure, you want to get rid of him asap.

Wait and Attack may seem to be the sort of situation where your lower damage output makes you less of a concern, but use your Attack to go for hands or feet (or arms/legs) going for a disable rather than a kill. Armors usually lighter on these locations, and they don't need much damage to significantly penalize the foe. If you're doing less damage, you won't be "wasting" the excess over the crippling threshold by going for these technically lower-value targets :D

There's also giving them penalties with Beats, which your more damaging but associates can then take advantage of - this pair up means that your associates don't need to be skilled enough to defeat defenses, if you're using your actions to penalize defenses instead.

Shield slamming and shoving them around to position them where your guys want them, or reverse their desired movement, or even knock them on their asses is useful.

Intimidation to give them combat penalties (or discourage them from fighting in the first place!) shouldn't be disregarded either. Or just to make yourself look more menacing than you actually are!
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:04 PM   #26
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Default Re: Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Which in turn is a holdover from D&D classes and "niche protection". Smart enemies really would bound over the fighters and crush the squishy mages that can hurt them the most, yet die quickly. A D&D DM generally has to have a selectively blind eye to the best way to achieve a TPK, so that everyone gets to play their assigned niche.
Which is itself a holdover from wargames, which have a habit of "compressing the battlefield." In a real war, for example, the armored guys aren't standing a couple feet ahead of the archers. Just look at the stats: Average archers can fire out to 150 yards! More, I imagine, if they arced their shots en masse, as archers historically did. In a war game, you want to have interesting melees and quick fights, rather than long slogs, so you typically see melee units charging ranged units in a couple of turns, rather than slogging through a rain of arrows.

This compression still exists in D&D because everyone is in a dungeon, but a moment's thought will reveal that a bow is a rather stupid weapon to bring into the confined space of a dungeon unless you're Legolas. In a real fight, I wouldn't put my archer near my "tank" unit. I'd stick him in a tree, on a rooftop or on a parapet. I'd also give him at least a short sword and some kind of armor so that when the enemy arrives, he can keep fighting. The guy in the heavy armor isn't there to absorb damage meant for the acher. It's to absorb damage meant for him. He's wading into the enemy, fending off their blows as he's cutting a bloody swathe through their line. That's what he's for (while the sniper/archer is helping him from afar).

I'm not trying to criticize how D&D works here, just point out that GURPS works alot better when you discard D&Dish notions. Even Dungeon Fantasy, despite its whackiness, works better when you start to approach it with GURPS-style sensibilities and have the Knight start killing people rather than throwing taunts around and waiting for the Cleric to heal him.
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:22 PM   #27
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Default Re: Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

it seems to me that gurps DOES have the potential for an attack of opportunity.

it's pretty straightforward, the GM rules that if an enemy acquires a new target and moves out of melee to attack, the old target (the tank) can take a wait maneuver, then make a one-step move behind the enemy and perform an all-out-attack using the rules for "attacks from behind" as opposed to the rules for "runaround" attacks.

so the enemy takes an attack with no opportunity for active defense, the tank can furthermore target the leg, possibly crippling it, and oops, no more runaway enemy.
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Old 07-17-2010, 06:05 PM   #28
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Default Re: Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

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Originally Posted by laguna View Post
it seems to me that gurps DOES have the potential for an attack of opportunity.

it's pretty straightforward, the GM rules that if an enemy acquires a new target and moves out of melee to attack, the old target (the tank) can take a wait maneuver, then make a one-step move behind the enemy and perform an all-out-attack using the rules for "attacks from behind" as opposed to the rules for "runaround" attacks.
You're giving the tank a free turn unless he takes the Wait _before_ the enemy moves and instead of his regular Attack. That's the only way you can interrupt someone else's Turn.

Remember it's _one_second_ Turns. Unless you take that Wait to prepare for someone else's action You can't react until it's _your_ Turn and that's after your enemy has finished his action on his Turn.
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Old 07-18-2010, 02:52 AM   #29
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Default Re: Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You're giving the tank a free turn unless he takes the Wait _before_ the enemy moves and instead of his regular Attack. That's the only way you can interrupt someone else's Turn.

Remember it's _one_second_ Turns. Unless you take that Wait to prepare for someone else's action You can't react until it's _your_ Turn and that's after your enemy has finished his action on his Turn.
yes, i remembered to mention the tank having to take a wait maneuver. the scenario I'm laying assumes that the tank has anticipated the enemy's action (since the damage dealer is so stupidly close).

also, it might be handy if after the damage dealer hits, there'd maybe be a PER roll followed by the tank being informed, "the enemy looks at your scrawny ally and narrows his eyes" or some other indicative fluff text.

that being said, even lacking the wait maneuver, unless the tank is MUCH slower than the enemy, he'll be able to catch up on his next turn and back attack then.

this is NOT an MMO we're talking about here, bear in mind. if somebody makes a glass cannon character and places him within striking distance of an enemy when the enemy can one-shot him, that player made enough mistakes to justify death or significant injury to his character.
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Old 07-18-2010, 03:42 AM   #30
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Default Re: Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

I disagree with sticking the long-ranged types way behind the lines. In a pitched battle, sure, your missile units don't have to be right next to your melee troops (though they might be pretty close sometimes to maximize range beyond the front...massed archers don't do close fire support very well). But in an adventuring party, what do you gain? Your 'tank' holds up the enemy for the handful of seconds it takes to resolve melee combat, while your 'sniper' takes a couple of long-odds shots. Meanwhile, you've split the party by a hundred yards or so, meaning that nobody can possibly help the archer if he ends up in trouble during the process.

Putting the archer way off in the distance probably makes the archer more likely to survive the fight, but it doesn't make you more likely to win, or to come out with no casualties, unless they're so weak, soft, and tempting to the enemy that their presence in the fray actually makes your group weaker due to the need to protect them.
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