Attacks of opportunity, or just the threat of them

[muranternet]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Note that you'll only get an attack with no defense if you can step into the runner's blind 'rear' space, which will require both that they run quite close to you and that you set your wait to go off as or after they pass.

I'm assuming that to run 5-6 hexes and attack wussy, they will need Move and Attack at -4 with no parry. If they pass on tanky's right, then all they can do is Dodge even if they have a shield since their shield would be on the opposite side (assuming all right handers). If they pass on tanky's left, then I suppose he could step and attack at the guy's back once he's passed him, though it leaves tanky's back open if there's a second guy there. I suppose it depends on how you interpret Wait, since it happens in the space of one second; does it go off as soon as tanky sees him start moving, or can he interrupt midmove?

Polydamas: Thanks for that thread reference; I missed it when trying to search the forum for this topic earlier.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by muranternet

I'm assuming that to run 5-6 hexes and attack wussy, they will need Move and Attack at -4 with no parry. If they pass on tanky's right, then all they can do is Dodge even if they have a shield since their shield would be on the opposite side (assuming all right handers). If they pass on tanky's left, then I suppose he could step and attack at the guy's back once he's passed him, though it leaves tanky's back open if there's a second guy there. I suppose it depends on how you interpret Wait, since it happens in the space of one second; does it go off as soon as tanky sees him start moving, or can he interrupt midmove?

It's definitely possible to interrupt mid-move. Much of the time, the whole point of a Wait maneuver is for your opponent to start into their action before you interrupt (for instance, by moving into your reach). There's no reason you couldn't set your wait to only activate as they pass by you, but it might be a bad idea to do so.

Agreed that the run-by is going to have serious defensive problems (assuming they're going for an immediate attack rather than just taking a Move to get past the defender and set up for a better attack next turn). But penalized defense and no defense are different.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by muranternet

Thanks for responses. I guess another option is for tanky to say "Wait, and stab at anyone who does anything," which (against one opponent) will let him strike at the guy if he attacks tanky, or get an attack with no defense on a run-by. I'll dry fire test the ideas and see how it works out.

I agree it's pretty hard to tie up two people at once, but wanted to see if there was any sort of zone of control option.

Be careful, because at least by my reading, smart foes can trick you to attack by having someone approach you in all out defense, to draw the attack (once you declare a wait, you set the trigger and have to react to it, at least by my reading), while the second attacker simply goes around you and stabs the archer.

Oh, and if you want real tany goodness, it's two perks: Shield Wall Training and Sacrificial Parry.

[muranternet]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Be careful, because at least by my reading, smart foes can trick you to attack by having someone approach you in all out defense, to draw the attack (once you declare a wait, you set the trigger and have to react to it, at least by my reading), while the second attacker simply goes around you and stabs the archer.

Oh, and if you want real tany goodness, it's two perks: Shield Wall Training and Sacrificial Parry.

I think it's perfectly legitimate for someone to step in on all out defense to counter this. I wouldn't abuse it too much by NPCs though since it would be pretty blatant anti-player metagaming, unless the enemy was a great tactician.

Shield wall and sac parry would be nice, if wussy was in a line with tanky, but the situation described involves a craven archer standing well behind the shield fighter, so it wouldn't matter. I suppose what I was looking for was more of a zone of control, but on reading this thread and the other thread about D&D style zone control, I think the best options for tanky are wait maneuvers, and the best option for wussy when he gets charged is to run around like an idiot a lot tying up the guy who's attacking him.

[Anaraxes]

smart foes can trick you to attack

That's not some sort of rules-lawyer trick. That simply reflects that fact that if two people do make a coordinated rush on one defender, that defender is going to have to choose which one to hit. He's been overwhelmed by numbers.

The GM should consider whether or not those NPCs are tactically savvy and trained enough to do such a thing. And unless they are really good, they may well have to take time to coordinate: "Let's get him on the count of three...1...2...3!" to make sure they're both charging at the same second.

If for some reason the two attackers aren't equal, and one of them is vulnerable while the other is invulnerable, the attacker just specifies the Wait to ignore the invulnerable guy, so he can't draw a futile attack. If they are interchangeable, there's nothing particularly "tricky" about which one you hit; so who cares if the attackers "forces" you to hit the one of his choice?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by muranternet

I think it's perfectly legitimate for someone to step in on all out defense to counter this. I wouldn't abuse it too much by NPCs though since it would be pretty blatant anti-player metagaming, unless the enemy was a great tactician.

Most maneuvers are recognizable. You could specify your wait such that it wouldn't go off for somebody advancing that way. Of course, if you did that the enemy could all advance into your threat zone with AoD (not an unreasonable thing to do, especially if you've got the reach on them) and your wait wouldn't get triggered at all.

I'm not sure, but I've seen indications that there's some degree of flex in Wait activation. So it might be possible to have a Wait that does trigger when A1 comes toward you with an AoD, but not use it and have it still available when A2 makes his move, so that if he tries to run past you can chop him up, and if he just advances with AoD as well you can still take a swing.

[martin_rook]

I'd say the best way to prevent a one-turn runaround of the archer's protection is to keep the archer further back in the first place. Ideally, if he's got a ranged weapon that takes so long to load or ready, he shouldn't be standing right behind the guy protecting him. Keep the archer ten yards back or so and he'll have a chance to put an arrow into the enemy moving around his fighter, or the fighter spin and hit the flanker from the rear.

(I realize that sometimes the situation dictates less-than-ideal positioning, but most of the time you ought to be able to keep a few yards of room if you're not surprised.)

[Fred Brackin]

Some of your problem may be with the concept of the tank fighter. That is someone in heavy armor who is primarily defensively oriented while it is an archer or mage who does the real damage. None of this works that well in Gurps.

As a counter-example, Nyx the Barbarian does act as an effective screen for Aldehar the Incendiary but she does not do this passively. She does this by making herself impossible to ignore and causing anyone within range of her heavily enchanted flaming flail to fear for their lives and crap in their pants. She kills enemies at a much faster rate than Aldehar (though he sometimes makes up for it in bulk).

So, confronted by multiple opponents? Kill one quickly. That should force the other one to think about his own defense rather than treating you as one of those orange barrels you see used in road repairs.

[muranternet]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Some of your problem may be with the concept of the tank fighter. That is someone in heavy armor who is primarily defensively oriented while it is an archer or mage who does the real damage. None of this works that well in Gurps.

As a counter-example, Nyx the Barbarian does act as an effective screen for Aldehar the Incendiary but she does not do this passively. She does this by making herself impossible to ignore and causing anyone within range of her heavily enchanted flaming flail to fear for their lives and crap in their pants. She kills enemies at a much faster rate than Aldehar (though he sometimes makes up for it in bulk).

So, confronted by multiple opponents? Kill one quickly. That should force the other one to think about his own defense rather than treating you as one of those orange barrels you see used in road repairs.

I agree. I actually dislike the idea of the tank fighter as it's a holdover from the Everquest holy trinity, against AI that's too dumb to anything but be taunted. I think my example was also flawed as 4 yards really isn't enough as per martin_rook's post. Wusses should be twenty yards off in open ground, minimum, and ideally they should be climbing a high rock further away.

Probably the best way to simulate what I'm looking at here is to just look at the field logically from the POV of the enemy. If you have two enemies, one in front of you and one ten yards back or so, your instinct is to go for the one in front of you most of the time. Cannon fodder doesn't have the benefit of satellite battlefield monitoring.

EDIT: Actually, if wussy is twenty yards back, then tanky has succeeded in his role of keeping two enemies in place. He simply gets beat on by two enemies, thereby keeping them in place and away from wussy, thereby accomplishing his mission.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Some of your problem may be with the concept of the tank fighter. That is someone in heavy armor who is primarily defensively oriented while it is an archer or mage who does the real damage. None of this works that well in Gurps.

I don't think this is a fair evaluation. A primarily defensively-oriented "tank" that isn't a potent attacker wouldn't be able to exercise area control by Wait or attack of opportunity, because their attack would be ignorable.

As your own example demonstrates, a melee fighter needing to prevent enemies from reaching a squishy type works just fine in GURPS. How good that squishy is at killing people isn't really the point.

(Also, while a non-lethal 'tank' probably won't work, a deadly-but squishy DPS could. Built with a powerful ranged Innate Attack, say.)


Also, the defender doing their job just by being scary is heavily dependent on the behavior of hostile NPCs. There are any number of reasons one might have to actively prevent the enemy from reaching their target.