Zeroed as a Disadvantage

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by ericthered

And I think the lack of reaction penalties are what makes the price [-5], because you look normal until you try to do something legal. If you don't look normal... that might be a different disadvantage.

It's worth noting that anyone who IRL has this disad is likely to have a lot of other associated disadvantages: dead broke or very low wealth, reduced status, maybe chronic health or mental health issues. All of those things are their own disadvantages, although it might include taboo traits that lock you into those things. Second Class citizen and Minority Group both look more or less accurate.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ericthered

And I think the lack of reaction penalties are what makes the price [-5], because you look normal until you try to do something legal. If you don't look normal... that might be a different disadvantage.

I don't think that applies. Valuable Property has no reaction penalties, but it turns out that it's worth -10, just as bad as Minority Group.

[RGTraynor]

In the modern-day West (and in most of the United States, that's going back thirty, forty years), I'd say -15 at least -- this would be a major, major disadvantage that compromises just about anything and everything you might want to do in order to live. Without papers, you can't drive, you can't have a bank account, you can't hold a decent job, you can't find a decent place to live, and you're subject to summary arrest in many jurisdictions.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

In the modern-day West (and in most of the United States, that's going back thirty, forty years), I'd say -15 at least -- this would be a major, major disadvantage that compromises just about anything and everything you might want to do in order to live. Without papers, you can't drive, you can't have a bank account, you can't hold a decent job, you can't find a decent place to live, and you're subject to summary arrest in many jurisdictions.

Well, you can drive without a license, find a place to live without any kind of identification, and work without paying taxes and get your checks cashed without a bank. But I think what you're getting at here is that Social Stigma: No Legal Status [-10] is very difficult to imagine without also having Wealth: Poor [-15] and Status -1 [-5] at least.

In GURPS terms, not having a bank account would be one feature of low Wealth. Not being able to live in any place but pay-cash-by-the-month establishments would be low Status.

I'm not really sure, but I suspect that whatever might happen to you when you got pulled over by a cop and it was discovered you had no identification of any kind would be highly dependent on the discretion of the cop and, maybe, a judge, if you had been committing some kind of crime. You'd probably just be treated like a homeless person, which is to say, released into the wild to fend for yourself - or maybe escorted to the county line?

[Anthony]

I'm not convinced that lacking records is worse than Criminal Record [-5]; in either case you will have difficulty obtaining jobs, credit, and things that normally require credit (housing, utilities, etc), and if you have interactions with the legal system, they will be inclined to think the worst of you.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I'm not convinced that lacking records is worse than Criminal Record [-5]; in either case you will have difficulty obtaining jobs, credit, and things that normally require credit (housing, utilities, etc), and if you have interactions with the legal system, they will be inclined to think the worst of you.

Two of my closest friends are an ex-con and someone who was for years an illegal alien in the US with only a foreign passport. The ex-con is a homeowner who went back to college and has a good job. But even after getting a green card, my foreign friend has so many hassles to deal with it's crazy. I'd choose criminal record with a parole officer over undocumented, no question.

[DeadParrot]

Number of points really depends on location, era and type of campaign.

In a current era USA or similar type country, being a ghost is a large problem. Unless you can find some off grid suppliers, buying and obtaining services is a large problem. No SSN + ID card, no job. No credit card, no hotel or rental car. Don't get me started on the "cashless" retail outlets. Or worse, the ones that require a smartphone to operate. Don't show up on a background check and many landlords won't rent you a place. Sure, you can get a 'rent by the hour' room but do you really want to sleep on a bed cleaned every couple of years? Off grid suppliers often want a significant markup over normal for their products. [-15]

Forty years ago and the lack of ID and records wasn't such a big deal. Many things like hotel rooms and rental cars were doable with cash. Cash was welcomed for almost all transactions. Even plane tickets could be had with cash and no ID. Lots of people would hire you after a short interview and a handshake. Plus getting an ID card didn't require the level of proof it does today [-5 or maybe -10]

100 years ago and no one really cared. [0]

Of course, if the campaign involves secrecy and infiltration, being a ghost is probably an Advantage. "We have a nice security cam shot of this person casing the place but facial rec gets no hits....."

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

What is the gurps difference between Minority Group and Second-Class Citizen? Based on those qualifiers it sounds like second-class citizen is what most minority groups functionally have...

The GURPS difference is how much society holds the minority group in suspicion. They're the same disad at different intensities, and the same applies to Barbarian.

As for the Social Stigma: Undocumented, it's worth bearing in mind that some of the real life consequences would be covered by other advantages packaged in. IE, that you can't make a lot of money legitimately is a matter of Wealth, and being a homeless person is a social stigma in its own right that would be added to your inability to show ID

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't think that applies. Valuable Property has no reaction penalties, but it turns out that it's worth -10, just as bad as Minority Group.

Valuable Property means you essentially have no rights, and most people aren't going to pay you much attention when you speak. Wrongs perpetrated against you generally only have legal consequences in terms of how they harm your owner - killing you is destruction of property rather than murder, and abducting you is simple theft (probably grand theft rather than petty theft) rather than kidnapping and illegal confinement. Those with Legal Enforcement Powers may be able to commandeer you, putting you in harm's way, if you have capabilities they need to make use of. They can also simply confiscate you rather than needing to go through the hassle of an arrest, if needed. So, it's rather worth those points, even with no mechanical reaction penalty.

As for Social Stigma: Zeroed, treating it similarly to Minority Group and generally adding on some Taboo Traits (probably in the form of Status above -1 and Wealth above Poor) seems about right. In a setting where being Zeroed has advantageous aspects, I'd say you combine the above with the RAW Advantage of the same name; in a setting where being Zeroed doesn't have negative repercussions like the above, just use the Advantage on its own.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by ericthered

It sounds like a social stigma to me: you are not an official person and can't take any legal actions at all.

My Gut is for [-5].

That's for a generic -1 reaction to everyone.

I'd use Secret (no legal identity) [-10] since you can't tell it just by looking at that person. If discovered you'll probably have more than 20 points work of issues (enemy? social stigma - no rights?).