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Old 04-18-2020, 09:39 PM   #21
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Default Re: Retro-modern armour for alternate timelines

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
There are no Medieval European gambesons in existence. Everything you have read is baseless speculation from people who have never studied historical armour. Those who seriously study this subject have had to look at textile armour from other cultures around the world and the construction is pretty consistent across regions and time periods.

There are some later European textile armours dating to the Renaissance period.
Well, I don't have information on that myself, and Wikipedia lacks utility on historical weapons and armour, so I apologize; I can neither agree nor disagree, as I lack data to base a solid foundation for either on.

It would seem strange that so many of the sources I have would get it wrong; at the same time, I must take into account that none of those sources have so much as hinted at the idea of a breastplate stopping a cannonball.
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Old 04-18-2020, 09:42 PM   #22
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Default Re: Retro-modern armour for alternate timelines

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This is simultaneously the best kind of unconvincing ('if a circumstance that almost certainly isn't available happens, you'll see how wrong you were for reasons I can't bother to articulate!') and phrased to suggest you've failed to understand the proposal.

"Move the breastplate out from the body a bit" would entail re-sizing if the armor is closely fitted. It's incompatible with the breastplate being 'properly fitted' to be closer to the body.
It doesn't matter how you design it, it can't work. You end up looking and moving like the Michelin Man. It is entirely impractical to wear textile armour underneath metal armour.
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Old 04-18-2020, 09:47 PM   #23
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It doesn't matter how you design it, it can't work. You end up looking and moving like the Michelin Man. It is entirely impractical to wear textile armour underneath metal armour.
I can literally point you to store pages where you can order ballistic armor that has a carrier for an armor plate on the outside.
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Old 04-18-2020, 09:55 PM   #24
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Default Re: Retro-modern armour for alternate timelines

Regarding Renaissance examples of textile armour:
Two of them are in the Holstentor Museum in Lübeck
A partial example is in a Stendal museum - the chest section is still intact.
One is in the Musée des beaux-arts in Chartres
One is in the parish church of Rothwell, near Leeds

Two Indian examples:
The Victoria and Albert Museum has a layered cotton example from India (called a peti). It is a little over an inch thick.
The Royal Armouries has similar peti from the arsenal of Tipu Sultan.

The MET has a Korean example: "The tunic of this armor is composed of thirty layers of a tough cotton fabric, skillfully cut and sandwiched together with hemp stitching to give an overall thickness of less than one inch. Weight: 6,207g"



Some texts telling us how they were constructed:

Ordinances of Louis XI of France (15th C)
"And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausess. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."

Howard Household Accounts (15th C):
"I took to the doublet maker, to make me a doublet of fence; for every four quarters: 18 folds thick of white fustian, and 4 folds of linen cloth, and a fold of black fustian to put without."

Companion of Hernan Cortez (16th C)
"The armour which they use in war are certain garments like doublets made of quilted cotton, a finger and a half thick, and sometimes two fingers; they are very strong. Over them they wear a doublet and hose all one garment, which are corded behind. This garment is made of thick cloth and is covered with a layer of feathers of different colours, making a fine effect… for neither arrows nor darts pierce them, but are thrown back without making any wound, and even with swords it is difficult to penetrate through them."

Aguado, History of Venezuela (16th C)
"Out of sacking or light linen cloths they make a kind of surcoat that they call 'escaupil'. These fall below the knee, and sometimes to the calf. They are all stuffed with cotton, to the thickness of three fingers. The layers of cotton are quilted between folds of linen and sewed with rough thread…"

The Irish "Cattle Raid of Cooley" (7th C) says that Cúchulainn was wearing armour made of 27 layers of linen (liente) and an apron made from the hide of yearling oxen.

More sources here:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpB...39cc368f490rl]


Sean Manning is a regular poster here. He is currently researching this topic in more depth. Hopefully he will notice this thread and comment.
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Old 04-18-2020, 10:05 PM   #25
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Default Re: Retro-modern armour for alternate timelines

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Aguado, History of Venezuela (16th C)
"Out of sacking or light linen cloths they make a kind of surcoat that they call 'escaupil'. These fall below the knee, and sometimes to the calf. They are all stuffed with cotton, to the thickness of three fingers. The layers of cotton are quilted between folds of linen and sewed with rough thread…"
A measure of 3 of my fingers on the handy ruler I have does indeed cover that 2-inch length you asserted; and thus, with the additional evidences, I concede the point.

As to whether someone might wear padded armour, a steel breastplate, and an armour gambeson of an inch or two thickness; or padded armour, an armour gambeson of an inch or two thickness, and a steel breastplate - both sound quite like the Michelin Man in proportions to me, and thus either seems equally likely. More accurately, each seems equally unlikely; although, you would certainly be well-protected either way! :D
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Old 04-18-2020, 10:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: Retro-modern armour for alternate timelines

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I can literally point you to store pages where you can order ballistic armor that has a carrier for an armor plate on the outside.
So? That plate is less than a foot square. It isn't a cuirass or even a breastplate. Low-Tech would call it a "pectoral". I agree that it is possible to wear pectorals over the top of textile armour.
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Old 04-18-2020, 10:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: Retro-modern armour for alternate timelines

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As to whether someone might wear padded armour, a steel breastplate, and an armour gambeson of an inch or two thickness; or padded armour, an armour gambeson of an inch or two thickness, and a steel breastplate - both sound quite like the Michelin Man in proportions to me, and thus either seems equally likely. More accurately, each seems equally unlikely; although, you would certainly be well-protected either way! :D
The armour was only this thick over the chest. Protection for arms and abdomen was lighter and more flexible.
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Old 04-18-2020, 10:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Retro-modern armour for alternate timelines

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So? That plate is less than a foot square. It isn't a cuirass or even a breastplate. Low-Tech would call it a "pectoral".
A) No, Low Tech Instant Armor might, but Low Tech doesn't have that term.
B) Not that one could possibly draw that conclusion from the text without extensive back-derivation efforts, since 'a foot square' is a description that doesn't relate at all to the usages in either book.

Moreover:
C) I'm not really impressed by that claim of correctness-by-definition, especially when:
D) You raised no objection to said plate being described as "not dramatically different from a breastplate" back in post #2.
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Old 04-18-2020, 11:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: Retro-modern armour for alternate timelines

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The armour was only this thick over the chest. Protection for arms and abdomen was lighter and more flexible.
Anyway, either case is equally awkward.
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Old 04-19-2020, 04:54 AM   #30
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Default Re: Retro-modern armour for alternate timelines

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
A) No, Low Tech Instant Armor might, but Low Tech doesn't have that term.
B) Not that one could possibly draw that conclusion from the text without extensive back-derivation efforts, since 'a foot square' is a description that doesn't relate at all to the usages in either book.

Moreover:
C) I'm not really impressed by that claim of correctness-by-definition, especially when:
D) You raised no objection to said plate being described as "not dramatically different from a breastplate" back in post #2.
Think about why those plates are not made any larger. Hint: it has nothing to do with weight.
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