Knightmare Chess - A Massive List of Questions

[Chandrak]

So, A friend of mine and I have been playing Knightmare Chess for ages - years and years of playing a few games a month, and we run into wierd questions all the time, largely because the game isn't especially technical with definitions, phases, and order of operations. Most of the time, these questions are (eventually) resolved by looking into the Errata / FAQ sections of the game and sort of extrapolating what ought to happen. But in a recent game we ran into some rather unusual situations, in particular one which we were very unclear as to how exactly the game looks at victory conditions, and a number of strange questions arising from it that we couldn't find discussed in the errata at all. So we decided to ask some questions here.

(To preface a bit, we're both generally rules lawyery - sometimes we'll let things slide a bit, but we try and follow the exact rules when possible. Although this does seem to get us into trouble a bit with this game, haha. But we're looking here for answers as to what order the game does things in).

Question One: Can a King remain in check (or checkmate) if it wins him the game?
In general, the rules state that if a piece cannot capture another piece for whatever reason, that piece isn't threatened. How does the end of the game affect this? The argument here is that if the game is over, the opponent doesn't get a turn, and thus it's valid for the King to remain in check or checkmate if it wins him the game. Or rather that technically he isn't actually in check anymore because the opponent does't get his next turn. Normally, this isnt a problem because in a normal checkmate situation the opponent gets a turn. But, as you'll see with several of the example's I'll pose here, sometimes victory (or stalemate, or draw) could possibly be achieved in some very, very strange ways.

Example: King of the Hill is in play. Black's King has been in the same space for 2 turns, meaning he has one more turn to win. White checks Black with a Rook. Does Black have to move his King on his final turn, or can he just move any piece at random, and since this means Black began/ended his 3rd turn with his King in place and wins? As a corollary, is Black even in check if the game will end next turn, thus depriving his opponent of a turn, and by extension meaning White's Rook doesn't threaten Black's King?

Question Two: If a player CAN leave his King in check/checkmate and end the game, when does the game officially end via standard checkmate?
It may seem like an odd question, but this is one we've run into more than once - whose turn is it when the game ends due to checkmate occuring, and who has had a chance to have turns? From a strict reading of the rules, it seems like once checkmate is achieved, the player who is being checkmated gets one final turn to see what they can do to get out of it. The question is whether or not the checkmated player can actually do things even if he has no valid moves to escape checkmate. We've come across two situations where possibly, a player who is currently checkmated could actually win the game while he is checkmated, but only if he can still act.

Example 1: Scorched Earth is in play. White has just checkmated Black. Black has no valid escapes (card or otherwise) but Black could take White's last pawn if he does in fact have a final turn. Scorched Earth does not require the turn to have ended before victory occurs, so is this valid and Black can end the game via Scorched Earth?

Example 2: There was in the FAQ at one point a way to remove your opponent's king with a card - If White had a Knight with Coup on it, and then Black plays Paladin on said Knight, then Coup is suspended. (Its in the FAQ that those two conflict). If White's original King is captured/dead for some reason, then White immediately loses, because Continuing Effects are not subject to the checkmate rule. Theoretically, could this occur on a turn in which Black is checkmated and looking to see if he can get out of it. Is this a valid move that ends the game immediately?

Question Three: If in the above examples Black's moves are correct, is the result a draw because Black never removed checkmate, or does Black win on account of the fact that White's checkmate wasn't 'resolved' because Black's turn never ended without him breaking checkmate since the game ended mid-turn?
This question basically asks *when* victory is looked for with respect to checkmate, and whether or not ending the game constitutes ending the turn. Here's where our background as MagicTheGathering players shows a bit - in more organized/mechanical games you'd have a system of phases where turns end at a specific point, and if the games ends before the last phase, the 'turn end' phase simply never happened. Generally speaking, we play KMC as if it did have that sort of thing, because of how the card timing's are set into specific places, i.e. before-move, after-move, after-turn-end, and so on.

Question Four: Who wins if one player causes victory conditions to apply to both players? That is to say, when multiple things happen as the result of a card, is it simultaneous or does the player pick the order?
Our MTG experience is showing here again - in other games usually there is some conflict-of-order resolution, but nothing in KMC. But there were two situations which we've seen could show up, both involving Scorched Earth.

Example: Scorched Earth is in play. The last two pawns (one of each player) are then removed, either by promoting together due to Hand-To-Hand or Earthquake, or because one player Fireballs both pawns. Who wins, or is it instead a draw or a double loss?

Question Five: Black has previously played Man Trap on a space. Black then plays False Orders to move a Rook onto said Man Trap, capturing it. White then plays Slippery Ground (on his own False Ordered Rook) after the end of the turn. What happens?
Two arguments seem to present themselves. One is that essentially Slippery Ground is retroactive and changes what happened - that is, the Rook never actually stopped on the Man Trap and thus it never goes off. The second looks at errata examples that seem to indicate that it's not retroactive, the Trap still gets set off, but the Rook's final positioning changes (see Panic & Knightmare!) so the Rook still gets captured anyway. Which is correct according to the rules? (Author's Bias: The intention of the cards here seems to us to be the retroactive answer, and thats what we chose to do for that game, but we're curious as to what the devs might say about it).

Question Six: Can Knightmare! and its like be used to cancel a card that replaces a move but doesn't actually move a piece?
The question here is about where or not a card that is played instead of a normal move still counts as your move for that turn. Essentially, the fact that English is a vague language and 'move' in KMC has different contexts - one being 'you've made a play this turn' and the other 'you displaced a piece from one space to another'.

Example: Black plays Warlord, replacing his move and transforming his King. Can White play Knightmare! to make him take it back? (Thus presumably buying himself a turn before Warlord gets played again.)

Question Seven: What things count as a move for the purposes of Knightmare? Does a replacement count? Or swapping piece positions?
Nothing special to say here, just a straight up clarification question.

Question Eight: When a player plays Merciless or another double move card, at what point does Slippery Ground kick in?
The errata talks in a few places about Bog's interaction with Merciless, Godspeed, and other double move cards, as well as Bombard, but what about Slippery Ground? What if a Rook uses Merciless to go only 2 spaces - one along the X axis and one on the Y? It moved two spaces, but not in a straight line. If it moved further, at what point does Slippery Ground kick into effect?

Question Final: For anyone who read this far, what's the most amusing things you've had happen in Knightmare Chess, for those who have stories?

Favorite Game: A game in which there were 7 queens and three warlords on the board at a single time, thanks to the magic of Earthquake, Warlord, Vulture, and a copycat card (Counterthrust, I think).

Favorite Moment: Ending a game via King of the Hill with only a King and a Pawn while the opponent's only piece (a King) was via Under Elf Hill. The joke being that the opponent decided if he couldn't own the top of the hill, he'd take the underground part.

[lucienpsmith]

We've had similar questions. It seems that Question 6 & 7 are critical. According to the KC2 terminology:

Move: The displacement of one piece from one square to another. This can be either a Regular Move, or a move specified by a regular card.

In question 6, CHAOS cancels a move. A move is the displacement of one piece from one square to another square.

WARLORD transforms a piece. According to the rules, a transformed piece is one that has been given a new name and new powers by a continuing-effect card.

WARLORD transforms a king into a Warlord. This transformation did not result from the displacement of one piece from one square to another - so CHAOS would have no effect. Transformation of pieces can not be cancelled by cards such as CHAOS or THINK AGAIN!

For arguments sake, let's say that WARLORD takes the king off the square, and places a new piece, Warlord, in it's place. It fails to meet the "move" criteria as the king was taken off the square and did go to another square. Similarly, the Warlord appeared on the square, but did not come from another square. So, again, CHAOS could not cancel it.

Let's look at the card DEMOTION. DEMOTION says: Replace one of you opponent's pieces (except a king or queen) with one of his captured pawns. Similar to WARLORD, this does not result in a move of one piece from one square to another square. At the most, the pawn comes from off-board and goes to a square. The demoted piece goes from a square to off-board. But no one piece moved from one square to another square. Therefore, cards such as CHAOS or THINK AGAIN! have no effect on the demotion.

When a card says that it replaces your move. It means that instead of a move, you play the card. Since you can only play one card on a turn (excepting PLOTS-WITHIN-PLOTS), that is the only card you can play.

The trick is the context of the game when interpreting the wording on cards. The use of the word "Replace" when it comes to pieces follows the following definition:

Replace: Take a piece from play and put another piece in its
place. If a card specifies that the replacement must be a
captured piece, dead pieces cannot be used.

"Replace" when it comes to playing a card that says "This replaces your move" means that you can not make a regular move and this card is the only card you can play this turn.

Let's look at FALSE ORDERS. The card specifies that you make a move with your opponent's piece, on your turn, instead of making a regular move. CHAOS can be used to cancel your movement of your opponent's piece because you have moved one of his pieces from one square to another square.

Originally Posted by Chandrak

So, A friend of mine and I have been playing Knightmare Chess for ages - years and years of playing a few games a month, and we run into wierd questions all the time, largely because the game isn't especially technical with definitions, phases, and order of operations. Most of the time, these questions are (eventually) resolved by looking into the Errata / FAQ sections of the game and sort of extrapolating what ought to happen. But in a recent game we ran into some rather unusual situations, in particular one which we were very unclear as to how exactly the game looks at victory conditions, and a number of strange questions arising from it that we couldn't find discussed in the errata at all. So we decided to ask some questions here.

Question Six: Can Knightmare! and its like be used to cancel a card that replaces a move but doesn't actually move a piece?
The question here is about where or not a card that is played instead of a normal move still counts as your move for that turn. Essentially, the fact that English is a vague language and 'move' in KMC has different contexts - one being 'you've made a play this turn' and the other 'you displaced a piece from one space to another'.

Example: Black plays Warlord, replacing his move and transforming his King. Can White play Knightmare! to make him take it back? (Thus presumably buying himself a turn before Warlord gets played again.)

Question Seven: What things count as a move for the purposes of Knightmare? Does a replacement count? Or swapping piece positions?
Nothing special to say here, just a straight up clarification question.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Chandrak

largely because the game isn't especially technical with definitions, phases, and order of operations.

Sorry, but it's very specific about how to handle conflicts. It's all in the little section marked Conflicts on the back side of rules sheet [plus the errata].

Originally Posted by Chandrak

Question One: Can a King remain in check (or checkmate) if it wins him the game?
Example: King of the Hill [sic] is in play. Black's King has been in the same space for 2 turns, meaning he has one more turn to win. White checks Black with a Rook. Does Black have to move his King on his final turn, or can he just move any piece at random, and since this means Black began/ended his 3rd turn with his King in place and wins? As a corollary, is Black even in check if the game will end next turn, thus depriving his opponent of a turn, and by extension meaning White's Rook doesn't threaten Black's King?

King of the Mountain is very clear in its text. "Victory can still be achieved by checkmate." If you are placed in check, you must move out of it under normal chess rules. If you can't remove the check, either by capture or moving your king out of check [or neutralizing the check with a card in Knightmare Chess], it is checkmate and there is no third turn for you to claim victory under the King of the Mountain card.

Questions two and three are invalid as Black cannot remain where he is, barring capture or neutralization of the piece giving check.

Originally Posted by Chandrak

Question Four: Who wins if one player causes victory conditions to apply to both players? That is to say, when multiple things happen as the result of a card, is it simultaneous or does the player pick the order?
Example: Scorched Earth is in play. The last two pawns (one of each player) are then removed, either by promoting together due to Hand-To-Hand or Earthquake, or because one player Fireballs both pawns. Who wins, or is it instead a draw or a double loss?

Scorched Earth is clear in its text, only regular pawns, not transformed or promoted pawns count, so if Earthquake or Hand-to-Hand promote all the pawns of a player or of both players, they do not count as lost pawns by or for Scorched Earth. Fireball is iffier. If the pawns are all in the adjacent squares, they'd count as simultaneous. I'd be inclined to score it as a loss for both players but I could see a case for calling it a draw for both players as well.

Originally Posted by Chandrak

Question Five: Black has previously played Man Trap on a space. Black then plays False Orders to move a Rook onto said Man Trap, capturing it. White then plays Slippery Ground (on his own False Ordered Rook) after the end of the turn. What happens?

Man-Trap only affects an opposing piece. False Orders is clear that the Rook remains his piece even while you are moving it, hence why it can capture one of your pieces but not one of his. He doesn't need to play Slippery Ground to move his rook off the Man-Trap since it's not an opposing piece and is therefore unaffected. If he plays Slippery Ground anyway, it moves as indicated by the text on Slippery Ground.

Originally Posted by Chandrak

Question Six: Can Knightmare! and its like be used to cancel a card that replaces a move but doesn't actually move a piece?
Example: Black plays Warlord, replacing his move and transforming his King. Can White play Knightmare! to make him take it back? (Thus presumably buying himself a turn before Warlord gets played again.)

No. The text of Knightmare! is clear, if his move is canceled, he may take his card back, if he used it. Knightmare! only affects normal chess moves, including castling and any similar moves allowed by the cards but it wouldn't allow you undo a transformation or promotion [except by taking back the move that made the promotion possible.]

Originally Posted by Chandrak

Question Seven: What things count as a move for the purposes of Knightmare? Does a replacement count? Or swapping piece positions?

Normal, regulation moves by the chessmen, including castling. Hidden Passage, Man of Straw and similar cards. Ones which use the word move or say the effect is added to the normal move are arguably good candidates for counting as move. Simple swaps aren't as clear as the effect vaguely resembles castling but doesn't claim that either man "moves."

Originally Posted by Chandrak

Question Eight: When a player plays Merciless or another double move card, at what point does Slippery Ground kick in?

Slippery Ground kicks in when the conditions in its text are fulfilled. While Bog treats the double move as if it were a single continuous move because it is going to stop the movement short in the first square, Slippery Ground is going to continue the final direction of movement. Arguably if the second move is in the same direction as the first move, it can be treated as meeting the requirement for Slippery Ground if the combined moves are in the same direction even if the second move was only one square.

Originally Posted by Chandrak

The errata talks in a few places about Bog's interaction with Merciless, Godspeed, and other double move cards, as well as Bombard, but what about Slippery Ground? What if a Rook uses Merciless to go only 2 spaces - one along the X axis and one on the Y? It moved two spaces, but not in a straight line. If it moved further, at what point does Slippery Ground kick into effect?

If the last move was one square in a different direction from the first move, Slippery Ground has no effect. Merciless allows a second move and it does not compel the moves to both be in the same direction. Slippery Ground extends the end movement of a piece and it requires that that last move be at least two squares in a straight line. If the second move is only one square, the conditions for Slippery Ground haven’t been met.