03-16-2018, 03:21 PM | #1 |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons
TFT more or less treats edged weapons and hafted weapons the same. They do about the same damage at given ST levels. In ITL, I think hafted weapons weigh more and cost a little less, but that's it.
For no particular reason, I'd like to tweak the rules so that there are some meaningful differences between edged weapons and hafted weapons. So here's a list of possible tweaks. 1. Reduce hafted weapon damage by 1 point. Classify them as BASHING WEAPONS. Bashing weapons will cause a normal figure to be staggered (i.e. suffer -2 to DX) if the figure takes 5+ hits BEFORE armor is considered. A normal figure will be knocked down if it takes 8+ hits BEFORE armor is considered. The knockdown rule may be too powerful; I haven't playtested it so I don't know. You could change the bash rule so that 8+ damage taken before armor will cause a -4 to DX instead of knocking the target down. Or only allow a -2 DX when the figure takes 5+ points of damage before armor. 2. Perhaps swords generally do more damage, but Hafted Weapons are a little easier to use. Reduce hafted weapon damage by 1 point, but make the Ax/Mace talent only cost 1 IQ point. Alternatively, reduce hafted weapon damage by 1 or 2 points, but allow a +1 DX when using them. 3. Morningstars/flails could be reduced in damage, but allowed to ignore shields. 4. Are hafted weapon shafts more vulnerable to breaking in combat? If so, a 16+ could be a broken ax/mace. Thoughts? Other suggestions? |
03-16-2018, 03:46 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
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Re: Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons
I've said before that I like the idea of the "bash." My concern is that the heavier hafted weapons are pretty much guaranteed to cause a knockdown. For instance, even taking 1 point of damage from the battleaxe leaves it 3d6-1 (average 9.5). Perhaps damage should be reduced by 1 point per die. This would make the battleaxe 3d6-3 (average 7.5). The concept is still very appealing to me but I think it needs some work.
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03-16-2018, 04:37 PM | #3 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons
Quote:
I don't think it would be unbalancing to make the bash a -2 DX at 5 points of damage and that's it. I dunno about reducing a 2 handed ST15 battleaxe to the same average damage as a 1 handed ST12 broadsword, though. |
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03-16-2018, 05:06 PM | #4 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons
Why lower damage? In general if you're trying to demolish large objects you use a hafted weapon or tool, blades are mostly for things that are relatively hard to hit. That argues for a damage increase and a DX penalty.
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03-16-2018, 10:26 PM | #5 | |
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Re: Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons
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Off the top of my head, if I remember correctly, shortsword is 2-1 and small axe is 1+2. So for the sword, a "wider" bell curve, the axe, more "narrow" flat results. You might get an 11 or a 2 with a sword, with varying chances, but with the axe, no less than 3 nor more than 8 and an even chance across the way. The sword has an average hit value of 6, and the axe 5.5. |
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03-16-2018, 11:20 PM | #6 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons
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A ST 10 mace does +2 swinging damage; a ST 10 broadsword does +1 swinging damage. But the broadsword’s damage is cutting damage so it’s increased by 50%. At ST 11, for instance, the mace does 1+1 or 4.5 damage on average. The broadsword does 1d (3.5 puts damage on average), but it will get more attacks and penetrating damage will be increased by 50%. Bottom line - the broadsword will do more damage on average. Of course, you can treat hafted weapons any way you wish. Last edited by tbeard1999; 03-16-2018 at 11:41 PM. |
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03-16-2018, 11:40 PM | #7 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons
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Also, your assertion about the damage curves is mostly incorrect. The hatchet, mace, morningstar, military pick do the exact same damage as their sword counterparts of the same ST. A ST15 battleaxe uses the same 3d6 bell curve that ST14 Two Handed Swords, ST16 Greatswords and ST13 2 handed Bastard Swords use. At ST 8,the club does exactly the same damage as a dagger. Only the hammer, small axe and great axe have higher minimums and lower maximums than their edged weapon counterparts. That’s only 3 of the 9 hafted weapons. And there’s no particular rhyme or reason as to why these weapons use different probability curves. The hatchet, small axe, great axe and battleaxe are all axes, but some use bell curves, while others use single die linear probabilities. The club, mace and hammer are bashing weapons, but the mace uses a 2d bell curve and the other two use 1 die linear probabilities. Last edited by tbeard1999; 03-17-2018 at 12:16 AM. |
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03-17-2018, 01:46 AM | #8 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons
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03-17-2018, 04:11 AM | #9 |
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
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Re: Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons
I suppose if we look at the original tools the weapons were derived from this gives us a clue to their usefulness. (These are just my ideas not scientific facts!)
Blades (daggers and swords) were designed for cutting flesh, leather, bark and rope/twine. They should therefore be at maximum effectiveness against unarmoured opponents or the very lightly armoured (thick skin or cloth armour) Axes. A modification of the blade with more weight behind the edge. These were designed to cut wood. These should be at maximum effectiveness against medium armour (leather and chain) and against shields. Maces and Hammers. The weight is concentrated in the head but does not rely on a sharp edge as the axe does. These were designed for working with stone and metal and so should be effective against the heaviest armours (plate, stone golems etc.) Spears were designed for hunting larger game. They have a small blade or piercing point at the tip but put a lot of extra weight behind it. They were effective at killing an animal before it could get close enough to harm the wielder. I'd like a system that incorporated these ideas without too much extra rules overhead. The idea that a weapon would be chosen for a specific purpose or situation appeals to me. So if your warrior is facing a heavily armoured knight, he'd be better to take that warhammer from his belt. If facing a horde of unarmoured goblins he'd be better of with a sword. If charged by a wild boar he'll wish he had a spear, and so on. I think it will require more than just fiddling with damage values to achieve this which was why I liked the "Bash" idea. What about something simple like this: Swords do +1 damage per die against bare flesh or cloth. Axes do +1 damage per die against shields (or things made of wood) Maces and Hammers either: ignore armour as far as the results of reactions to injury results are concerned (Bash) or do +1 damage per die against heavy armour. Spears do double damage against beasts and large creatures. Just some rough ideas at this point for consideration and comment. |
03-17-2018, 06:54 AM | #10 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: Distinguishing Edged Weapons from Hafted Weapons
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I quoted GURPS because (a) I figured most folks would be familiar with it and (b) it might offer some insight into the TFT designer’s mind. I kinda thought that would be obvious. Last edited by tbeard1999; 03-17-2018 at 06:57 AM. |
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