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Old 11-03-2016, 09:50 PM   #31
Icelander
 
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Default Re: [Reign of Steel] Zoneminds IQ and Complexity

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Again, an AI can learn some general knowledge. Which means it can increase its IQ for the same reasons that a biological can. Saying that AI IQ must be complexity limited is the same as saying that they can't learn general knowledge. There is no "general knowledge" skill for a reason.
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Remember, GURPS IQ is not the same as IQ (and should probably have a different name, but legacy). It's quite possible that your GURPS IQ has gone up.
Best approximation for IQ, how good are you at an unfamiliar IQ-based skill when given a short time to prepare?

High IQ astonish everyone, at all times. It's not skill-linked, not even if you try to imagine a huge range of 'gifted' skills. It's basically being better at learning from experience, even second hand experience.

Average people with Talent or skill for a given field, which does not include the new field, will go from gifted Protagonist to Normal Student in a flash. Give them a breakthrough achieved theough a related skill which isn't under the Talent and watch how they suddenly have to stop for a whole non-magical career in order to get it.

In general, highly organised and motivated people will add IQ higher than us lazy dolts. That's not because they score higher on any real-world IQ test, but because work ethic, willpower, organisation, psychological health, happiness and motivation are all a hell of a lot more important than theoretical ability if you really wanted to appy yourself, cousin stoner deadbeat sofa babbage!
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Old 11-03-2016, 10:32 PM   #32
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Default Re: [Reign of Steel] Zoneminds IQ and Complexity

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
In general, highly organised and motivated people will add IQ higher than us lazy dolts. That's not because they score higher on any real-world IQ test, but because work ethic, willpower, organisation, psychological health, happiness and motivation are all a hell of a lot more important than theoretical ability if you really wanted to appy yourself, cousin stoner deadbeat sofa babbage!
I'm inclined to think those things are also liable to increase your performance on an IQ test.
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Old 11-04-2016, 12:09 AM   #33
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Default Re: [Reign of Steel] Zoneminds IQ and Complexity

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I'm inclined to think those things are also liable to increase your performance on an IQ test.
Incidentally, yea, if you're lucky enough to find talented people of multiple races, ethnic origin or social groupings. In most cases, you'll get cooeration that yields you more live specimens, but a lot fewer people even marginally disinterested from the major social groupings that govern the next step.

Well, at least while Shea still had his sole vote...
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Old 11-04-2016, 12:25 AM   #34
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Default Re: [Reign of Steel] Zoneminds IQ and Complexity

Ultimately, that GURPS even BOTHERED to publish a formula that required a MINIMUM Complexity rating for a computer to have a given IQ or DX, is what is throwing me for a MAJOR loop here.

Either the minimum required complexity is a hard limit, or it isn't. If it isn't, then why is it even there to begin with?

I could say more, but the gist of my thinking is that I've never really LOOKED into the idea/concept of robots as characters in my campaigns. Seeing what I see now, a complexity 8 AI computer - has the potential to have a skill of 58 in a mental hard skill running a legally allowed Complexity 7 program (which is what a skill for a robotic character is) at skill level 58. THAT is obscene, and only requires for the robotic character to have had 24 points spent on that particular skill (aka: neural net learning).

Now for the good news. Having spent the day reading the rules more closely, I've come to the conclusion that all of those who find the rules pleasing aren't going to worry one whit at the logic inherent within the rules as written (or lack of logic thereof) regardless of my thoughts. That means, that this is not only the last time I'll post to this particular thread, but will also be the last time I object to the lack of logic/coherent structure within the rules for Robots as Characters. DX and IQ can improve without having to upgrade the hardware. ST and HT can only be improved by getting a new body/shell (ie a physical upgrade). Minimum Complexity does not matter. A complexity 3 computer at TL 9 with a neural net, can improve its IQ until it reaches 21 if the player so decides. This is higher than the IQ of a complexity 8 Megacomputer - but, hey, there's no disconnect there! ;)
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:28 AM   #35
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Default Re: [Reign of Steel] Zoneminds IQ and Complexity

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Remember, GURPS IQ is not the same as IQ (and should probably have a different name, but legacy). It's quite possible that your GURPS IQ has gone up.
I may have gained some degree of willpower or metabolic calmness that gives a similar effect. But I most certainly have not gained Perception or IQ! giving better skill defaults. Aging gives experience and some degree of assistance in figuring things out if they are similar enough to something one has already learned. That's not Gurps IQ.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if I didn't perform worse on tests at 42 than I did at 22.
This all sounds a bit like old fart bias like how aging only affects gurps humans after 50, which I think we all can agree is gaming fun but not remotely realistic. Age allows increased skill and experience, but I don't believe it improves over youth in mental adaptability or talent.
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Old 11-04-2016, 03:33 AM   #36
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Default Re: [Reign of Steel] Zoneminds IQ and Complexity

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Either the minimum required complexity is a hard limit, or it isn't. If it isn't, then why is it even there to begin with?
It's the out-of-factory, when-purchased-but-with-no-real-life-experience limit. Similar to how a person out of the best university is still not as good as someone who spent a lifetime eagerly perfecting one's talent and gaining experience. E.g. in THS, AIs with IQs above their Complexity standards tend to have huge costs, because you're essentially paying for a veteran instead of a fresh-out-of-academy AI.
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Old 11-04-2016, 03:36 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Reign of Steel] Zoneminds IQ and Complexity

Thanks all for your comments.
I missed the Genius option. Should read more carefully ;) I'll remove quantum computers from my campaign then and define Zoneminds as TL 10 megacomputers with Genius and Neural Nets options (resulting in a computer costing $10B, impressive!)

Summing up: Complexity was used as a guideline for racial IQ, with individual IQs varying. Also, Taboo Traits (Fixed IQ or Complexity-Limited IQ) were explicitly not added to allow AI characters to surpass their racial IQ. How much they can vary is GM's decision (can't find guidelines for that in the Basic Set though...)

Alright, here are my GM decisions:
- Human characters can vary widely in how they use their biological CPUs. They are limited to IQ 20, i.e. max +10 IQ from racial IQ.
- Machines, however, are usually working on the limits of their hardware. The AIs can only increase their IQ for 3 points (max IQ 23 for Zoneminds). AUs can only increase it for a point (max IQ 12 for a Overseer) and NUs cannot increase IQ at all (no sapient Scorpions or Vermins, sorry).
- If an AI want to increase its own IQ significantly it needs better hardware.
- Lucifer is also a Genius Neural Net megacomputer that barely fits in a robotruck (20 tons). He needs a support truck (as per RoS) for power and other robot support.
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