Changing Rapid Fire

[Stupid Jedi]

Why not adopt something simple for high ROF weapons, like the number of hits is equal to [Margin of Success x ROF]/[Recoilx10], round down.

I realize this doesn't jive well with the ROF bonus to hit, but that's all I've got.

[Kraydak]

Originally Posted by Stupid Jedi

Why not adopt something simple for high ROF weapons, like the number of hits is equal to [Margin of Success x ROF]/[Recoilx10], round down.

I realize this doesn't jive well with the ROF bonus to hit, but that's all I've got.

Do you have any problems with my suggestion upthread?

[Stupid Jedi]

Originally Posted by Kraydak

Do you have any problems with my suggestion upthread?

Way too complicated for my liking. Maybe if you generated a separate table for each Rcl value cross-referencing MOS and ROF to determine number of shots hit. That would speed things up immensely.

Even my suggested fix is too much math for an activity that will likely happen each round in modern combat. Unfortunately, rapid fire attacks are complicated and I don't think there is an easy solution.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Regarding 'point targets':

RoF rules are definitely not meant to treat the target as being limited to a 1×2yds figure, otherwise they wouldn't accept Size Modifiers at all. A failed roll against a given SM means that the strike did not manage to land within the space occupied by said SM.

Besides the Word of Kromm on this, there's also the rules for attacking walls and structures, all shots damage a roughly 1 hex area on the wall in order to breach it. Also the rules for vehicle hit locations work just like the regular hit location rules, all shots roll once and are applied to that location, regardless of it's relative size.

Otherwise I would be allowed to shoot at the Eye hit location and then, upon missing, claim a reroll against every eye-sized hex on the opponent's body.

A person is only SM 0 and is absolutely a point target. In fact people are generally why we define point targets the way we do. In real life that's mostly what people have been concerned with using small arms to kill.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If it hits within the 1 yard radius (from center of mass, I assume), then why does the ship being large help me hit that 1 yard radius?

Presumably because it's easier to keep your sights centered in a big blurry black thing than a little blurry black thing. Does this make as much sense for attacks with things other than man portable weapons, probably not. Of course there really aren't any (non-Spaceships) rules for vehicular combat yet.

Also, it would mean that when I attack an SM+9 target, I get to claim the +9 bonus for SM and the right to land my shots in an SM+0 target (which happens to match the default eye size of an SM+9 entity).

Sure if you roll a SM 0 target on the Hit Location table that's exactly what happens. It's absolutely what happens every time you shoot at a structure. Even when you engage it over subsequent turns, all of your shots go to the same breach, by RAW.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Actually, the rules for attacking point targets can't possibly be right either. Consider, if you will, that we could simply scale the carrier and distance down until it's a few yards away and roughly human-sized. 2 yd target 3 yd away. It is now a point target, but both the net modifiers and all the geometry is basically the same.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. If I'm shooting a scale model aircraft carrier, shots that hit, hit and shots that miss can clearly miss. How is this different from shooting any other similar target. The rounds will be in a group, some of that group may be on target and some of it won't.

The scaling just isn't right. It could be close to right for point targets at some particular range, but not at all ranges.

Scaling problems with edge cases in GURPS? Never!
Seriously the combat rules are completely scaled for skirmish combat between individual fighters at typical skirmish ranges. In general the rules are scaled around basically realistic people doing the sorts of things people have generally done, with hand tools and within maybe a 200x200 box.

If GURPS was a function that approximated reality (or fiction) it would be a power series with a radius of "basically stuff that one person can do by themselves" and centered at "the TLn typical military recruit (or untrained tribal warrior)". Outside of that it almost always breaks down somewhere.

And of course allowing suppression fire or bullet scatter to argue that all your shots go somewhere near where you want with no roll would make AA machineguns or autocannon a bit too accurate.

THis is a problem, but it's a fairly RAW result of Hitting the Wrong Target, Suppression Fire, and Cover.

Originally Posted by Stupid Jedi

Why not adopt something simple for high ROF weapons, like the number of hits is equal to [Margin of Success x ROF]/[Recoilx10], round down.

I realize this doesn't jive well with the ROF bonus to hit, but that's all I've got.

Any rule for this needs to take MOA into account, since the shots that miss are going to disperse according to this. A "perfect" shot (with effective Skill 22 + (6xAcc)) is going to hit with all the shots if the target surface is larger than the dispersed group.

Really the problem here is there needs to be rule specifically for attacking big things as area targets with weapons with ROF 5+. It should hit with more shots as a function of the weapons base accuracy and the area size but also divide penetrating damage by a function of area size. It should also create bigger breaches in structures.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Of course there really aren't any (non-Spaceships) rules for vehicular combat yet.

There absolutely are in Campaigns. You can dispute their quality, but they exist. (Personally, I think they're a lot better than Spaceships...)

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Sure if you roll a SM 0 target on the Hit Location table that's exactly what happens. It's absolutely what happens every time you shoot at a structure. Even when you engage it over subsequent turns, all of your shots go to the same breach, by RAW.

Really? I'm away from my basic set but I didn't think it was established that you rolled hit locations per volley.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm not sure what you are saying here. If I'm shooting a scale model aircraft carrier, shots that hit, hit and shots that miss can clearly miss. How is this different from shooting any other similar target. The rounds will be in a group, some of that group may be on target and some of it won't.

If there's a problem with the results of shooting at the aircraft carrier (and I think we agree that there is even if we have some variance about what it is), there's a problem with shooting at the scale model of the aircraft carrier. The 'underlying reality' is functionally the same, and the game mechanics are the same. However, with the scale model you're clearly not just missing the point target but still hitting the ship as a whole, because the model is a point target.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Scaling problems with edge cases in GURPS? Never!
Seriously the combat rules are completely scaled for skirmish combat between individual fighters at typical skirmish ranges. In general the rules are scaled around basically realistic people doing the sorts of things people have generally done, with hand tools and within maybe a 200x200 box.

I really don't know what typical skirmish ranges are, but obvious things to do with GURPS span SMGs and carbines at arms length to sniping at over a mile, which is more than enough difference to bring out the issue. You don't need to be strafing carriers in space.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

THis is a problem, but it's a fairly RAW result of Hitting the Wrong Target, Suppression Fire, and Cover.

Yeah, though I think it's obvious that that's neither as intended nor a more correct model.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

There absolutely are in Campaigns. You can dispute their quality, but they exist. (Personally, I think they're a lot better than Spaceships...)

There's also rules for Powers (and a worked example of Psi). Does this mean that the rules in Powers aren't more developed/useful/complete?

Really? I'm away from my basic set but I didn't think it was established that you rolled hit locations per volley.

I think you absolutely have to. The alternatives don't make much sense. The rules assume basically everywhere (except Suppression) that you are trying for the tightest group possible. If you specifically aim for a hit location, all your hits hit that. On a man sized target the "Miss by 1" results seem to indicate that you are trying for a tight group on the targeted location. The really big one is when attacking structures, all of your hits target the same 1 yard area.

If you are supposed to roll hit location for each shot, then you get equally bizzare results (not to mention way too many rolls). Why would you also hit the conning tower of that aircraft carrier if you were shooting at the hull?

Also:

Originally Posted by B400

If you hit, and your foe fails
to defend, roll 3d on the appropriate
hit location table to find out where the
blow fell; see Hit Location Tables
(p. 552).

Seems to indicate a single roll.

If there's a problem with the results of shooting at the aircraft carrier (and I think we agree that there is even if we have some variance about what it is), there's a problem with shooting at the scale model of the aircraft carrier. The 'underlying reality' is functionally the same, and the game mechanics are the same. However, with the scale model you're clearly not just missing the point target but still hitting the ship as a whole, because the model is a point target.

I'm still not seeing it. When you hit the model the "wound" is in the same hex as the model. When you hit the real carrier the "wound" is in the targeted point, and we apparently either just ignore the other impacts or consider Hitting the Wrong Target.

I really don't know what typical skirmish ranges are, but obvious things to do with GURPS span SMGs and carbines at arms length to sniping at over a mile, which is more than enough difference to bring out the issue. You don't need to be strafing carriers in space.

Actually the Basic Set doesn't handle the mile long sniper shot. It assumes the round transitions to the target in less than a second regardless of projectile velocity or distance. Hence the Harsh Realism rule in Tactical Shooting.

Yeah, though I think it's obvious that that's neither as intended nor a more correct model.

Like I said, I think this is conspicuous lack of rules for engaging area targets other than Suppression Fire, rather than any problem with the rules for hitting a point target.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There's also rules for Powers (and a worked example of Psi). Does this mean that the rules in Powers aren't more developed/useful/complete?

No, but you didn't say that GURPS could use more coverage of vehicle combat, you said "there really aren't any (non-Spaceships) rules for vehicular combat yet."

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think you absolutely have to. The alternatives don't make much sense. The rules assume basically everywhere (except Suppression) that you are trying for the tightest group possible. If you specifically aim for a hit location, all your hits hit that. On a man sized target the "Miss by 1" results seem to indicate that you are trying for a tight group on the targeted location. The really big one is when attacking structures, all of your hits target the same 1 yard area.

If you are supposed to roll hit location for each shot, then you get equally bizzare results (not to mention way too many rolls). Why would you also hit the conning tower of that aircraft carrier if you were shooting at the hull?

Is it uncommon for a burst of automatic fire to hit a person in several distinct parts of their anatomy?

If you make a called shot to the hull of the aircraft carrier, there's no rolling for hit location at all. If you're rolling for hit locations I don't see why your hits can't be spread around the target a bit.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Also:


Seems to indicate a single roll.

Per blow. Is a half-dozen bullets one blow?

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm still not seeing it. When you hit the model the "wound" is in the same hex as the model. When you hit the real carrier the "wound" is in the targeted point, and we apparently either just ignore the other impacts or consider Hitting the Wrong Target.

...but what you've been saying is that when you shoot at the aircraft carrier and only hit with a handful of the rounds, you didn't actually miss the aircraft carrier, just the point target. But when you shoot the scale model and only hit with the same handful of rounds, you can't miss the point target but hit the model because the model is a point target. However, geometrically it makes no sense for shots to miss the scale model but hit the full-size carrier.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Actually the Basic Set doesn't handle the mile long sniper shot. It assumes the round transitions to the target in less than a second regardless of projectile velocity or distance. Hence the Harsh Realism rule in Tactical Shooting.

GURPS gleefuly invites and handles the mile long sniper shot, especially with High Tech.

The fact that it handles it better with Tactical Shooting doesn't change that.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Like I said, I think this is conspicuous lack of rules for engaging area targets other than Suppression Fire, rather than any problem with the rules for hitting a point target.

Side note: I find the term 'area target' used for a single object that happens to be larger than an arbitrary measure somewhat distressing.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

No, but you didn't say that GURPS could use more coverage of vehicle combat, you said "there really aren't any (non-Spaceships) rules for vehicular combat yet."

In the same sense that the Basic Set doesn't really have any rules for Powers.

Is it uncommon for a burst of automatic fire to hit a person in several distinct parts of their anatomy?

Yes. Automatic fire is in the first place uncommon outside of suppression. Secondly the burst isn't going to generally disperse so much that a shot hits the head and the foot of a stationary man sized target. The rules handle this with the miss by 1 rules as far a I can tell. If you make your roll by Rcl+1, then two shots hit the targeted location, and one hits the miss by one location.

If you make a called shot to the hull of the aircraft carrier, there's no rolling for hit location at all. If you're rolling for hit locations I don't see why your hits can't be spread around the target a bit.

They should be spread around roughly by the dispersion of the weapon. It doesn't really make any sense that I can hit one point on the vehicle and then another hundreds of yards away, while trying to keep the same sight picture, does it?

How about this. If you are supposed to roll for each shot, and you attack a building with say 3 locations. Why does every shot that hits, hit the same 1 yd area on each location?

Per blow. Is a half-dozen bullets one blow?

Per attack. A half dozen bullets is one attack.

...but what you've been saying is that when you shoot at the aircraft carrier and only hit with a handful of the rounds, you didn't actually miss the aircraft carrier, just the point target. But when you shoot the scale model and only hit with the same handful of rounds, you can't miss the point target but hit the model because the model is a point target. However, geometrically it makes no sense for shots to miss the scale model but hit the full-size carrier.

I still don't get it. If I paint a target on a wall, most (if not all) of my misses are likely to the wall. In both cases you are still shooting at a 1yd target. One happens to be on an aircraft carrier, the other happens to be a model of an aircraft carrier. The fact they have the same shape doesn't seem relevant.

GURPS gleefuly invites and handles the mile long sniper shot, especially with High Tech.

Except it really doesn't. RAW allows you to shoot a guy that is say, going into a building in the next second, and still somehow hit him. Even though he is indoors when the shot actually arrives. In fact he somehow never makes it indoors, because the shot kills him a minute before it even arrives.

Side note: I find the term 'area target' used for a single object that happens to be larger than an arbitrary measure somewhat distressing.

The real world isn't generally concerned with the stuff that GURPS gamers get up to. Mostly it's concerned with killing other people with small arms. Man-sized isn't that arbitrary a measure, when you consider that.

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Oh wait, let's add some targeting software. Acc 30? Sure!
So now, Skill 20 + RoF bonus 9 + size bonus 17 - range penalty 18 + Acc 30 == 58. Lots? Lots.
A roll of 11 means (58-11)+1 == 48 hits. Still an underwhelming 12%. The rest of the bullets apparently went at the very least 375yds to the side. At 2000yds. So the majority of bullets go 18yds off-center for each 100yds travelled.

The rules are far from perfect and would need volumes to cover every possible situation. Maybe down the line they will have a book devoted to space combat but right now the GM should be able to make a few judgements to simply the problems. I know I would.

As far as I'm concerned if you moved just a little closer the Battleship would count as a Large Stationary target. It can't dodge and your Viper's movement would counter its own movement. Make your roll by the rcl of your weapon and every shot hits. Simple. It's silly to rule otherwise.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In the same sense that the Basic Set doesn't really have any rules for Powers.

That would be similarly untrue, yes.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yes. Automatic fire is in the first place uncommon outside of suppression. Secondly the burst isn't going to generally disperse so much that a shot hits the head and the foot of a stationary man sized target. The rules handle this with the miss by 1 rules as far a I can tell. If you make your roll by Rcl+1, then two shots hit the targeted location, and one hits the miss by one location.

I'm pretty sure that that's a house rule.

I'm not sure why you'd exclude suppression, since I'm pretty sure people do occasionally get hit by that. Also, does nobody actually use burst mode?

Finally, yeah, head and foot might be a bit improbable, at least on a standing man, but what about, arm, vitals, and neck?

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

They should be spread around roughly by the dispersion of the weapon. It doesn't really make any sense that I can hit one point on the vehicle and then another hundreds of yards away, while trying to keep the same sight picture, does it?

If you could always keep the exact sight picture you wanted, shooting would be awfully simple, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

How about this. If you are supposed to roll for each shot, and you attack a building with say 3 locations. Why does every shot that hits, hit the same 1 yd area on each location?

Don't ask me, I think the whole 'point target' thing is absurd.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I still don't get it. If I paint a target on a wall, most (if not all) of my misses are likely to the wall. In both cases you are still shooting at a 1yd target. One happens to be on an aircraft carrier, the other happens to be a model of an aircraft carrier. The fact they have the same shape doesn't seem relevant.

Let me try to describe the situation again. Please point out where you're not with me, because I can't tell.
-When you machinegun a 1000 yard ship at 1500 yards, and your attack roll results in only a fraction of your rounds hitting, the other rounds haven't somehow missed the ship entirely, just the arbitrarily assigned point target.
-A 2 yard model ship at 3 yards presents the exact same sight picture. Geometrically, any ray from your gun to the full-size ship will pass through the model.
-Game mechanically, shooting the 2 yard model ship at 3 yards involves the exact same attack roll (disregard bullet travel effects...if you feel the need, assume a laser).
-A 2 yard model ship is a point target.
-Thus, when you make the same roll and produce the same miss rate firing at the model rather than the ship, you can no longer say that they miss the point target but still impact the model.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Except it really doesn't. RAW allows you to shoot a guy that is say, going into a building in the next second, and still somehow hit him. Even though he is indoors when the shot actually arrives. In fact he somehow never makes it indoors, because the shot kills him a minute before it even arrives.

Tactical Shooting doesn't particularly say otherwise, though it does provide some trivial information that a GM wanting to say otherwise might use.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The real world isn't generally concerned with the stuff that GURPS gamers get up to. Mostly it's concerned with killing other people with small arms. Man-sized isn't that arbitrary a measure, when you consider that.

I'm pretty sure there are entire military branches that are not chiefly concerned with killing other people with small arms. GURPS is not Rifleman: the RPG.

Originally Posted by Snaps

The rules are far from perfect and would need volumes to cover every possible situation. Maybe down the line they will have a book devoted to space combat but right now the GM should be able to make a few judgements to simply the problems. I know I would.

As far as I'm concerned if you moved just a little closer the Battleship would count as a Large Stationary target. It can't dodge and your Viper's movement would counter its own movement. Make your roll by the rcl of your weapon and every shot hits. Simple. It's silly to rule otherwise.

Is it somehow not silly that being a few yards farther away makes your hit rate drop from 100% to 12%?