Tactical reloads of shotguns

[Icelander]

I recently found occasion to review how the rules for Reloading missile weapons applied to shotgun shells and how those rules interacted with Fast-Draw (Ammo) and various other special rules.

I found some strange things there.

Shotguns and bolt-action rifles with internal magazines are both listed with (2i) for their reloading times, but there's a crucial difference in how Fast-Draw (Ammo) affects that time. In both cases, one Ready manuever is needed to retrieve the shell or cartridge and one Ready manuever to load it into the internal magazine. For the bolt-action rifles, Fast-Draw (Ammo) has the relatively usual effect of shaving one second of this time, i.e. it eliminates the Ready manuever needed to retrieve each cartridge. For shotguns, however, Fast-Draw (Ammo) only shaves one second off the time for every three shells. Why this discrepancy?

Second, the Double-Loading Technique. As written, it can't be applied to shotgun shells (it only affects multi-barrelled guns and revolvers). Is there any reason why it should not be allowed for shotguns, so that each Ready manuever applied to two shells?

Third, shell holders. I couldn't find stats for them anywhere. What do they do, in game terms? Reduce the time needed to load the shotgun by having the shells be immediately available or do they just give a bonus to Fast-Draw (Ammo)? Or do they do absolutely nothing useful, with reloads being no quicker or easier from a sidesaddle shell holder than from a belt pouch or even a pocket?

[Ubiquitous]

Shell Loaders, pretty sure, knock off a second for Fast Draw (like Clipped Magazines), since they're 'on hand'.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Shell Loaders, pretty sure, knock off a second for Fast Draw (like Clipped Magazines), since they're 'on hand'.

Makes sense to me, I guess.

But on the other hand, Clipped Magazines have the same effects as a successful Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll. And in the case of shotguns, Fast-Draw (Ammo) actually does not knock off a second, it knocks of 1/3 of a second.

Which I find rather strange, especially considering that in the Basic Set, Fast-Draw (Ammo) is stated to 'at minimum, reduce loading time by 1 second' or something to that effect.

[Green-Neck]

Re: your interpretation of the double-loading technique not applying to shotguns - it says double guns or revolvers - but does not specify cartridge type.
I understand it to mean you can load two shells at once when two open chambers are available, whether they be shotgun, rifle, flares etc...
A double barrel shotgun is a multi-barrel gun - for example.

As for shell holders, I've always assumed that the use of fast draw [ammo] implies the use of easily available ammo - through bandoliers, shell holders or the like.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Green-Neck

Re: your interpretation of the double-loading technique not applying to shotguns - it says double guns or revolvers - but does not specify cartridge type.
I understand it to mean you can load two shells at once when two open chambers are available, whether they be shotgun, rifle, flares etc...
A double barrel shotgun is a multi-barrel gun - for example.

True. I meant whether it could apply to pump action shotguns with internal magazines.

I see no intrisic implausibility in being able to take a penalty to Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll and ready two shells at the same time and then insert them quickly one after another.

Originally Posted by Green-Neck

As for shell holders, I've always assumed that the use of fast draw [ammo] implies the use of easily available ammo - through bandoliers, shell holders or the like.

But the rules don't actually demand that. Reloading is at skill +0 when the ammo is kept in an ammunition pouch of your web gear or at your belt.

Seems to me that having it at your fingertips would be more convenient than having it in an ammo pouch in your web gear. Hence, a bonus or even an automatic time reduction.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I see no intrisic implausibility in being able to take a penalty to Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll and ready two shells at the same time and then insert them quickly one after another.

The rules for Multiple Fast Draw in Martial Arts already allow this.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The rules for Multiple Fast Draw in Martial Arts already allow this.

Yes. And Dual-Loading appears to be a specific Technique constructed using that rule.

But the problem is that having shotgun shells Ready does not reduce the time to reload the weapon. Somehow, Fast-Draw (Ammo) works differently for shotguns than for other weapons, so it's not possible for the GM to just say 'OK, you drew 2 shells with that Fast-Draw roll, now you just have to insert them for one second each'. Well, it's possible, but it would contradict the rules given for reloading shotguns in High-Tech.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Green-Neck

I understand it to mean you can load two shells at once when two open chambers are available, whether they be shotgun, rifle, flares etc... A double barrel shotgun is a multi-barrel gun - for example.

Here's the double reload:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Go8gGzF90

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Seems to me that having it at your fingertips would be more convenient than having it in an ammo pouch in your web gear. Hence, a bonus or even an automatic time reduction.

If it's already "at your finger tips," Icelander, it's READY. That reduces the time, bud.

"It takes one Ready maneuver to open the breech, one to remove the spent cartridge, one to retrieve a fresh cartridge, one to insert it, and one to close the breech."

If you are holding the cartridge in your hand, that's one less ready maneuver. Of course, that means you can't use that hand very well -- and it might require a DX roll, even at penalty as in other cases mentioned on p. HT80. No such thing as a free lunch.

[Green-Neck]

Icelander: It sounds like your wondering if you can use the double-load technique to do something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3E5wtmWCk4
Am I on the right track?