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Old 03-10-2014, 10:47 AM   #31
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Gun design: Muzzle energy, bullet caliber, and recoil

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Originally Posted by BraselC5048 View Post
A .357 magnum is considered a viable caliber for police work, and pretty much the most powerful one, while no one considers the .44 magnum to even be worth thinking about.
A man's got to know his limitations.
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Old 03-10-2014, 11:11 AM   #32
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Gun design: Muzzle energy, bullet caliber, and recoil

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Originally Posted by BraselC5048 View Post
I think that the only thing everybody can agree on is that bigger bullets going faster are better, that the .357 magnum does well, and that the .38 special does not.
If you look at the game mechanics of the weapons being compared you see that you're looking at 2D-1 P for the .38 or 6pts. That's just barely a Major Wound requiring a check for Knockdown and stunning for an average roll v. an average man. Bad luck or a big guy and it really is inadequate.

The .357 at 3D P gives 10.5 or Major Wound plus Consciousness Roll or at least MW in adverse circumstances. That certainly is better.

The thing is that 2D P+ also adds up to 10.5 on an unarmored target. Neither is really enough damage to start trying to take down armored targets.

Now your quest for 3D P+ is also more but sits between 2 breakpoints and only adds a little insurance against bad rolls. It isn't the same effect as a .357 though.

For close range combat v. unarmored targets I wouldn't push that hard to exceed 2D P+ unless I could go all the way to something that ended up at 20+ pts of damage to get the next required HT roll.
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Old 03-10-2014, 11:43 AM   #33
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Gun design: Muzzle energy, bullet caliber, and recoil

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
For close range combat v. unarmored targets I wouldn't push that hard to exceed 2D P+ unless I could go all the way to something that ended up at 20+ pts of damage to get the next required HT roll.
Given the concern about firing in vacuum, I doubt that unarmored targets is a reasonable assumption. On the other hand, the general solution to armored targets with a pistol is 'find another weapon'.
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Old 03-10-2014, 11:59 AM   #34
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Gun design: Muzzle energy, bullet caliber, and recoil

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Given the concern about firing in vacuum, I doubt that unarmored targets is a reasonable assumption. On the other hand, the general solution to armored targets with a pistol is 'find another weapon'.
I don't really believe you want a revolver for firing in vacuum. With proper lubricants it's not really nay more reliable than an auto pistol and the barrel cylinder gap makes for more places for the propellant gasses to escape from.

At close range those gasses can be somewhere between a serious nuisance and an actual danger.

The Mythbusters recently fired a revolver in a vacuum chamber and the gas expansion was dramatic. It did prove that guns will work in a vacuum and maybe we'll at least stop getting that question.

Foe close range against spacesuits I'd go with a bangstick or powerhead of some kind.
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Old 03-10-2014, 12:02 PM   #35
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Gun design: Muzzle energy, bullet caliber, and recoil

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Foe close range against spacesuits I'd go with a bangstick or powerhead of some kind.
Why would you not use a handgun?
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Old 03-10-2014, 12:15 PM   #36
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Gun design: Muzzle energy, bullet caliber, and recoil

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Why would you not use a handgun?
Did you not understand the bit about the powder gasses?

They'll travel long distances at full expansion velocity without any air to slow them down. That's at more than 5000 feet per second. You could get erosion of faceplates or damage to seams and gaskets. The gasses could bounce off the target or the walls and come back on the firer too.

I suppose you could use one the underwater weapons with the closed piston system such as the HK P11 from HT to avoid this.
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Old 03-10-2014, 12:24 PM   #37
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Gun design: Muzzle energy, bullet caliber, and recoil

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Did you not understand the bit about the powder gasses?

They'll travel long distances at full expansion velocity without any air to slow them down. That's at more than 5000 feet per second. You could get erosion of faceplates or damage to seams and gaskets. The gasses could bounce off the target or the walls and come back on the firer too.

I suppose you could use one the underwater weapons with the closed piston system such as the HK P11 from HT to avoid this.
I don't understand why you care about some minor erosion of equipment when you've got people trying to kill you at short range. Shoot first, get a new helmet later.

Also not sure why a bangstick would avoid the problem.
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Old 03-10-2014, 12:29 PM   #38
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Gun design: Muzzle energy, bullet caliber, and recoil

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Did you not understand the bit about the powder gasses?
In general, if you're willing to use a ranged weapon in the first place, you're not that concerned about damaging things downrange; it's not like the powder gases are going to be a worse problem than the bullet.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:42 PM   #39
BraselC5048
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Default Re: Gun design: Muzzle energy, bullet caliber, and recoil

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
In general, if you're willing to use a ranged weapon in the first place, you're not that concerned about damaging things downrange; it's not like the powder gases are going to be a worse problem than the bullet.
Exactly. Even if the paint needs a new coat and the woodwork needs a new coat of varnish, and possibly some replacement if the .50 cal was used, it's not like it's going to damage anything important, while a lucky hit from a bullet might puncture a ventilation duct, sever some wiring, puncture a water line (draining between the check valves every few meters that would certainly be closed if there was any warning of combat at all), or puncturing a drinking water tank (heavily compartmentalized) - nothing very serious, and even a very lucky hit could be repaired, especially compared to the damage the ship's weapons do.

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Given the concern about firing in vacuum, I doubt that unarmored targets is a reasonable assumption. On the other hand, the general solution to armored targets with a pistol is 'find another weapon'.
DR 14 to 16 is expected. Doing the math again, it looks like APDS rounds really need to be issued, 4d (2) pi, in order to actually have decent effect past armor. Of course, the Navy's HEAT rounds do much better.

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Originally Posted by Green-Neck View Post
To get the .455 webley [265 gr at 650 fps] to have the same penetrating power as the .357 magnum [130 gr. at 1400 fps] its going to have significantly increased muzzle energy. It wont be able to be fired out of a break action revolver designed to withstand 14,000 psi. The .357 by comparison is 35,000 psi.
It's similar to a .455 Webley, but not at all identical, and is likely designed 35,000 PSI as well.

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Originally Posted by Green-Neck View Post
I don't understand that at all. They are either chambered for the same round, or they aren't. Are you proposing to have a lengthened case for the revolver round like .38 sp. vs .357 magnum or similar?

Be aware also that revolvers typically use rimmed cartridges, which are not compatible with automatic weapons. Use of moon clips may mitigate this.
It was supposed to be simply the SMG round with a longer cartridge, but after reading your point about rimmed cartridges, it's probably not interchangeable at all, same bullet but a different cartridge case.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
When a gun doesn't work, it doesn't count as a gun.

Your automatics probably shouldn't be so unreliable. I'm pretty sure HT85 is talking about actual guns that exist. An automatic designed to operate in vacuum could probably do a lot better. I'd expect malf 16 or even 17 to be quite achievable.
After the result of the one boarding action I've played using those rules, I'd have to say that malf 15 for every automatic sounds like a pretty good idea. There were a lot of jams. Possibly 16 instead.

Although the only jams that mattered were my character's SMG, and the two .50 cals (our side, we were defending) covering different ends of the area where they boarded from. And my character's SMG was already -1 malf from overheating. Possibly the 1st Lieutenant and the Marines dropped the ball with regards to lubrication and ammunition of the machine guns in the storerooms.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
(If you have it, you might check Pyramid 3/55, page 7, where there's a box on guns in space. It's meant for TL9 but you may find it interesting.)
Is that in the edition of Pyramid that isn't available in any way, or a different edition. I'm still dying to see Lockwork for GURPS, but I have no idea if I'll ever see it. My campaign is more or less TL 8^, for the most part, without any great amounts up incredible technology, and I keep the superscience to a bare minimum.

One thing I've been wondering, would a gun with Very Reliable and High-Cyclic Controlled Bursts be more likely to jam in a vacuum? It seems to me like very high rates of fire with extremely high precision construction wouldn't do well at all under harsh conditions.
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:01 PM   #40
johndallman
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Default Re: Gun design: Muzzle energy, bullet caliber, and recoil

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Originally Posted by BraselC5048 View Post
Is that in the edition of Pyramid that isn't available in any way, or a different edition.
Pyramid vol. 2 is the one that's unavailable; 3/55 is volume 3 number 55, available here.
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