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Old 04-10-2022, 04:54 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default what about if Leg Grapple followed a Dodge instead of a Parry?

For example you see here a gangster clearly is dodging instead of parrying (moves his head out of the way) but Batgirl leaves her boot hanging as an easy target for a grapple...

https://youtu.be/V_SbokCEVJ0

Would it be a perk to swap which defense sets up the technique on MA76 ?

Best I can tell with design math, ignoring the usual -1 to grapple a limb is paid for by the +1 drawback of needing an active defense to set it up...

There's three other benefits though which I can't figure out the payment system for:
1) grapple can only be dodged not parried (represents retracting leg)
2) attacker is +4 in the Quick Contest to resist a Break Free (not sure how to translate that to Technical Grappling)
3) attacker gets +3 in Takedowns if they've secured this move
Are there three other drawbacks I'm not seeing that would pay for these benefits?
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Old 04-11-2022, 01:03 AM   #2
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: what about if Leg Grapple followed a Dodge instead of a Parry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Would it be a perk to swap which defense sets up the technique on MA76?
I'd say yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Best I can tell with design math, ignoring the usual -1 to grapple a limb is paid for by the +1 drawback of needing an active defense to set it up...
Those rules are for designing techniques not Perks. It would be an Average Technique with a generous default to Brawling, Judo, or Karate.

Alternately, just rule that there's no penalty to Leg Grapple vs. kicks to the upper torso, neck, or head. That's realistic and is one of the reason that combative martial arts keep kicks low and fast except as finishing moves.

Batgirl should have known better than to use a flashy high kick against a much stronger, well-trained opponent. She was obviously going for the fast knockout and rolled badly.

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
1) grapple can only be dodged not parried (represents retracting leg)
etc.
Treat these as benefits of the special technique, but it's more likely to be a Combination and good choice of maneuvers.

Possible Drawbacks: Requires AoA or only works vs. kicks to targets above the waist.
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Old 04-11-2022, 01:14 AM   #3
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: what about if Leg Grapple followed a Dodge instead of a Parry?

Another option: No special technique is necessary; just regular GURPS Martial Arts and a bit of GM largesse.

Turn 0: BG has escaped from captivity, but her arms are still bound, giving her a penalty to overall DX and preventing her from punching or grappling. She has surprise, giving her a free turn. She succeeds with a powerful kick to the Torso that does considerable damage and Knockback. Despite serious Shock penalties, the thug makes his roll to avoid going over when he slams into the railing. This opens the range to 3+ yards.

Turn 1: Batgirl's Step is 2 yards, so she does AoA (Long) with a kick to the head, going for the quick takedown. Thug does AoD (Increased Dodge). BG rolls badly, maybe even a CF. In any case, she's off balance and can't move on her next turn. Thug succeeds with his Dodge, maybe even a CS.

Turn 2: BG uses AoD (Dodge) but has a penalty because of the previous turn's events. Thug goes for AoA (Committed) Leg Grapple, which the GM rules is possible due to the high extended kick and the unusual dice rolls of the previous turn. Penalties for using his Off Hand might apply.

The thug gets another seriously good dice roll, while BG blows her Dodge roll and is grappled. Since she was striking at Reach 1 with a kick, she couldn't use hand strikes even if her hands weren't bound.

Turn 3: Thug goes for what's essentially a AoA (Determined) Pin, but with the intent of hoisting BG over his head and throwing her off a balcony. He uses his dominant hand to Grapple her torso and succeeds with his maneuver. He then begins to hoist her using the rules for Drag or Carry Your Victim (p. B371) as a Free Action.

BG forgets her training and panics, effectively Doing Nothing while she's being manhandled. Charitably, let's say she's doing an Evaluate maneuver or Concentrating on some mental task. Her options are pretty limited due to the Pin and the thug's dominating ST.

Turn 4: Thug does a Facing Change and performs a Ready maneuver to hoist BG overhead. Since her weight exceeds his BLx2, the thug must technically take 4 seconds to lift her but the GM rules that he can use Extra Effort (Rapid Recovery) (Martial Arts, p. 131) to do it more quickly, allowing 3 Ready maneuvers in one turn. He succeeds with his EE rolls and up she goes.

At that point the clip ends.
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Old 04-11-2022, 07:02 AM   #4
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: what about if Leg Grapple followed a Dodge instead of a Parry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Would it be a perk to swap which defense sets up the technique on MA76 ?
Seems like a possible application of the Special Setup Perk, yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
1) grapple can only be dodged not parried (represents retracting leg)
Canonically, I believe a Parry can represent getting a limb out of the way, so I'd allow a Leg Parry here. If you insist on there being some contact to count as a Parry, it could represent moving the leg to contact (and push aside) the arm rather than the hand.

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
2) attacker is +4 in the Quick Contest to resist a Break Free (not sure how to translate that to Technical Grappling)
3) attacker gets +3 in Takedowns if they've secured this move
I assume this is to represent the fact the grapplee (Batgirl in this case) has poor footing, what with having only one leg on the ground? Realistically, I think any case of grappling one leg could have such an effect; if there aren't already rules to that effect, perhaps consider allowing Control spent from a grapple to the leg to have increased effect in those cases (if using TG/FDG; if not, I suppose a bonus might be in order, but again I think this should apply to any grapple of the legs).

Of course, Batgirl's real issue there is that she appears to have been handed the Damsel In Distress Ball (a variant of the all-purpose Idiot Ball*). "Strong Man catches Heroine's leg when she tries to kick him" is a pretty common event in fight scenes, and helps establish Strong Man as being both strong (she can't break free) and having some degree of skill (it's not easy to pull that off against a competent martial artist; treat Batgirl's leg staying there for a full second as artistic license, to make it more obvious to the audience what's happening). It's almost invariably followed by "Heroine uses other foot to kick Strong Man in the face, breaking the grapple," establishing that she is more skilled (although against an opponent who outclasses Heroine, expect him/her to avoid the kick). Batgirl is typically depicted as entirely capable of pulling that off, even if her arms are bound; her panicking is complements of the Damsel In Distress Ball, above.


*Given this is pretty common in Supers stories, it might be appropriate to have "Catches the Idiot Ball" as a possible result on a Critical Failure.
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Old 04-12-2022, 03:17 AM   #5
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: what about if Leg Grapple followed a Dodge instead of a Parry?

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Those rules are for designing techniques not Perks. It would be an Average Technique with a generous default to Brawling, Judo, or Karate.
Yeah I just meant the math used to design all the components of Leg Grapple to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Batgirl should have known better than to use a flashy high kick against a much stronger, well-trained opponent. She was obviously going for the fast knockout and rolled badly.
Yeah a leg kick at -2 instead of a face kick at -5 probably would've worked better, though maybe she's worried he'd shrug that off so a face hit was more likely to knock him off balance.

Unless of course I'm wrong about it being at the face and it was actually aimed at the chest for -0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Possible Drawbacks: Requires AoA or only works vs. kicks to targets above the waist.
Ah you're right I forgot about that part of LG "a kick to your upper body – skull, eye, face, neck, torso, vitals, arm, or hand"

That's I guess be an extra +1 on top of the +1 for "requires a successful parry" by limiting what the parry was in response to.

I'm sorta wondering how to combine this concept with an active defense like Grabbing Parry in Technical Grappling though. You can do that against kicks but I think it works the same regardless of how high the target is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Thug does AoD (Increased Dodge). BG rolls badly, maybe even a CF. In any case, she's off balance and can't move on her next turn. Thug succeeds with his Dodge, maybe even a CS.
If she crit-failed her kick I don't even think you'd even get an active defense against a miss.

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Turn 2: BG uses AoD (Dodge) but has a penalty because of the previous turn's events. Thug goes for AoA (Committed) Leg Grapple, which the GM rules is possible due to the high extended kick and the unusual dice rolls of the previous turn. Penalties for using his Off Hand might apply.
Why would taking AOA (committed) require GM permission here?
Or it sounds like you're using GM permission to allow a missed kick (or dodged kick) to substitute for a parry to initiate the technique?

Good idea bout the off-hand since he only uses his left hand for this.

though it makes me wonder - even if you wanted to follow up w/ a right-handed grapple elsewhere, wouldn't it make more sense to start with a 2H grapple and then if you do a right-hand grapple later you just start by letting go as a free action?

All I can figure is maybe that keeps the right hand available to perform parries? Like you cuoldn't let go of a 2H grapple when attacked to do a parry since free actions like 'let go' only happen at start of your own turn.

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Since she was striking at Reach 1 with a kick, she couldn't use hand strikes even if her hands weren't bound.
Since you see Batgirl struggle to free her leg from his right hand, so I think that might qualify as a failed "Break Free" attempt on her turn, prior to the follow-up grapple w/ the right hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Turn 3: Thug goes for what's essentially a AoA (Determined) Pin, but with the intent of hoisting BG over his head and throwing her off a balcony.

He uses his dominant hand to Grapple her torso and succeeds with his maneuver.
This actually seems like a series of things, first a step+attack to grapple torso w/ the right hand, then maybe a 2nd maneuver later for the lifting?

I dunno about pins, I'm glad Douglas Cole removed them in Technical Grappling. The right leg definitely isn't pinned, she's still able to flail it about pretty well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
He then begins to hoist her using the rules for Drag or Carry Your Victim (p. B371) as a Free Action.
or maybe the 'Pickup' technique in Technical Grappling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
BG forgets her training and panics, effectively Doing Nothing while she's being manhandled. Charitably, let's say she's doing an Evaluate maneuver or Concentrating on some mental task. Her options are pretty limited due to the Pin and the thug's dominating ST.
What she's doing, if we don't look at as a specific "Break Free" attempt, might qualify as the "Bucking Bronco" maneuver Cole put into Technical Grappling, al all-out wigglefest to try and lower Control Points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Turn 4: Thug does a Facing Change and performs a Ready maneuver to hoist BG overhead. Since her weight exceeds his BLx2, the thug must technically take 4 seconds to lift her but the GM rules that he can use Extra Effort (Rapid Recovery) (Martial Arts, p. 131) to do it more quickly, allowing 3 Ready maneuvers in one turn. He succeeds with his EE rolls and up she goes.
extrapolating Rapid Recovery this way is a pretty cool idea, seems reasonable

reminds me of how you can have 'Reduced Time' on Telekinesis to do quicker pickups, in Psionic Powers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I believe a Parry can represent getting a limb out of the way, so I'd allow a Leg Parry here.
Allowing a no-contact Leg Parry to be used in situations where a dodge would if the attack targets the foot seems pretty reasonable, yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I assume this is to represent the fact the grapplee (Batgirl in this case) has poor footing, what with having only one leg on the ground? Realistically, I think any case of grappling one leg could have such an effect; if there aren't already rules to that effect, perhaps consider allowing Control spent from a grapple to the leg to have increased effect in those cases (if using TG/FDG; if not, I suppose a bonus might be in order, but again I think this should apply to any grapple of the legs).
Yeah it's a complex issue, like you can grapple a leg on the ground without lifting it up...

Or say for example you catch a kicked leg, it might be possible for the kicker to still bring his foot to the ground (and you with it, unless you let go) despite the grapple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Of course, Batgirl's real issue there is that she appears to have been handed the Damsel In Distress Ball (a variant of the all-purpose Idiot Ball*). "Strong Man catches Heroine's leg when she tries to kick him" is a pretty common event in fight scenes, and helps establish Strong Man as being both strong (she can't break free) and having some degree of skill (it's not easy to pull that off against a competent martial artist; treat Batgirl's leg staying there for a full second as artistic license, to make it more obvious to the audience what's happening).
A competent martial artist might be using a Defensive Attack (MA100 = +2 to avoid a Leg Grapple) or MA51's Rapid Retraction perk.

Batgirl probably gets stuff like that later but this fight happens in season 3 which is pretty early in her career (she's still not officially part of the Bat Family yet, Robin keeps trying to ditch her) and her skills come largely from doing gymnastics (ie Acrobatic Kicks)

I actually think leaving the leg hanging out front is pretty standard until you learn faster chambering. I think in GURPs terms your foot counts as occupying the hex ahead of you a full second after throwing a kick. I could see something like if you want to withdraw the foot faster (get it out of the hex so it can't be targeted there) I could see something like calling it a dodge or a leg parry, even if you did it pre-emptively when you weren't being attacked.

Bane does exactly the same thing to Batman after Batman kicks him in the chest back in season 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=987idWRfyqU

TAS was just gritty and they weren't the best fighters.

That or - maybe they both were trained to do stuff like retract kicks but fatigue played a role in lowering their skill levels?

If we were using last-gasp style penalties (-1 to DX per 20% missing FP) then DX penalties penalizing a Leg Parry roll (representing a faster retraction of a foot to get it out of range for grapples) might reflect such a reality.

If we were using this mechanic to represent re-chambering / withdrawing kicks (maybe even punches or melee weapon thrusts?) then perks like 'Rapid Retraciton' would need some retooling, I'd want to change that into a parry bonus instead of a penalty to hit it.

The benefit to a pre-emptive chamber would be that the enemy has to advance a step to target your withdrawn leg. The downside is - you used up your leg parry already so now you can't leg-parry future attacks on your legs that turn, and would need to use a different defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
It's almost invariably followed by "Heroine uses other foot to kick Strong Man in the face, breaking the grapple," establishing that she is more skilled (although against an opponent who outclasses Heroine, expect him/her to avoid the kick). Batgirl is typically depicted as entirely capable of pulling that off, even if her arms are bound; her panicking is complements of the Damsel In Distress Ball, above.
while you could in theory throw a donkey-kick to the guy's head when he lifts you in a supine position like this, it would be pretty inaccurate, plus she could be worried "will I be able to break my fall properly if he drops me and my hands are bound?" even though it's probably a safer fate than getting thrown into acid

My guess is it's some kind of Break Free to reduce CP and position herself perhaps for a kick
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