Math, GURPS, and its reputation for complexity

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I don't know what's in that 152 pages, obviously, but it might be rather a lot more than you get in 32 pages.

Lite is weak. The only thing it can do that every small RPG can't is have other GURPS rules glued on. That's fine if you just want a replacement-level system to have a system and good if you aren't actually playing Lite but rather Lite plus...

“Lite plus” is fine, and often better than BS, which in turn is frequently overkill.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Lite is weak. The only thing it can do that every small RPG can't is have other GURPS rules glued on.

Unless you're trying to produce a kitchen-sink game (IME that's rare outside of supers, and it doesn't work very well in GURPS anyway because tech, magic, and powers are not at all balanced against one another), what you generally want is a fairly compact set of core rules that you can conveniently bolt other extensions onto.

[Ulzgoroth]

My objection isn't to Lite plus, but to not bothering to say the plus part.

If you say Lite is good and the reason isn't inside the pages of Lite that's confusing.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Unless you're trying to produce a kitchen-sink game (IME that's rare outside of supers, and it doesn't work very well in GURPS anyway because tech, magic, and powers are not at all balanced against one another), what you generally want is a fairly compact set of core rules that you can conveniently bolt other extensions onto.

I don't want that, and I can't say I see a lot of evidence that people in general want that, but certainly somebody wants that.

[nudj]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Some people don't want six hundred pages of rules. Some think a fraction of that works just fine. And with your .sig revealing that you're unfamiliar with earlier versions of GURPS, GURPS used to be one of those lighter games. 1st edition Basic Set ran 152 pages.

And there's an illustrative quote. See, I was just Googling "GURPS First Edition" so I could verify that page count I just typed. The first hit was a blogpost last year from someone who'd just obtained a copy. The post included this:

"I have the GURPS Fantasy supplement, also from 1986, which adds the magic system and a game world ready to play within. I think this publication strategy was a strength back in the early days because players and GMs would incrementally master the game as it was published. Nowadays, the neophyte is confronted with the whole game at once. This was enough to put me off for the longest time."

That's why some people think well of GURPS Lite -- some as a gateway, some as a standalone game with which they can have plenty of RP fun. Rules-lighter might not be your cup of tea, but that doesn't mean the tea is cold and weak.

This. GURPS used to have a much easier entry point. The 3rd Ed Basic Set was much more “Basic” (and sold a ton). Basic Set, Magic, and Fantasy got you really far. And Space was genius. That one book got you playing Sci Fi.

Then came modifiers and techniques and so many skills. And it all went into 4th edition basic. Now it’s too daunting for many. Instead of Basic Characters and Campaigns, it should have been Basic, GMs guide, and Advanced Rules.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I don't want that, and I can't say I see a lot of evidence that people in general want that, but certainly somebody wants that.

Judging by the market, it's what people want. Outside of GURPS, the only game systems that do kitchen sink out of the box are superhero systems like Champions and M&M.

[reb]

Way I do skills is just have the player make a simple die roll add anything that affects it and if he beats my target success number they accomplished it , better the roll the better the outcome.
I usually just keep it that simple and modify the rolls by various factors if there are mitigating circumstances that will affect the roll and just keep it as simple as possible.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Judging by the market, it's what people want. Outside of GURPS, the only game systems that do kitchen sink out of the box are superhero systems like Champions and M&M.

Simple core plus expansions and instant kitchen sink are not a partition of the space of games.

Most ttRPGs, of course, are not presented as generic systems at all but as integrated games, either right down to setting or stopping just short at heavily detailed themes (as seen in D&D).

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'm working under the assumption that the bulk of your post is hyperbolic in nature, but I felt I should pin a note, here. I don't think favoring DnD (or any other system*) over GURPS is any indication of mental failing or the like - it just means you like the way they do things better (well, assuming you're giving each system a fair shake; there certainly are some folks out there - and possibly some right here for that matter - who consider their favorite system the pinnacle of greatness and won't even try anything else).

*I may make an exception for someone who favors F.A.T.A.L., but from what I understand trying to play that is roughly akin to being flogged, so such an individual may well enjoy the cat o' ninetails treatment.

I was being only mildly hyperbolic, I stand by the essence of my words.

This includes D&D, not other systems, well except maybe Pathfinder.

But D&D in particular is a complete memetic titan that simply has done away with the basic notions of merit that GURPS, for example, allegedly does not have.

D&D has always been "THE" mainstream roleplaying system, back then, and still at present, yet it has also transformed itself vastly.

That alone makes me wonder if people played D&D because they liked it, unless human taste has changed in the past 40 years at every iteration of D&Ds new ruleset.

No matter how good or crap D&D was, it was always the mainstream, yet it never repeated itself (very much), aside from things like D20 and some core things like saving throws.

I don't know if I'm making sense enough right now, because I feel like this is something hard to express but the notion is:
It's so transformative to itself, it never went back to THAC0, it always had something different, but it also ALWAYS was THE mainstream TTRPG system.

Even with 4E that was the case, and it will be the case with 6E and 7E and ∞E.
(okay, someday people might get sick of it)

Merit has long left the building for D&D.
Not so for GURPS.

GURPS is lightyears ahead of a system, but it doesn't have the memetic population body and its peer pressure.
You can get away not playing GURPS in virtually ANY open rpg circle, like universities, game shops, or prison.

Because D&D will be there, and in fact, you might not be able to play at all if you don't play D&D there.

So, ninetails flogging and public ridicule WOULD be an antidote against D&Ds superiority.
If you could be, let's say, a presidential candidate to the USA and held a speech on how bad D&D is and how great GURPS is and not be considered at least mildly crazy, then GURPS would gain ground.

If you could add a TTRPG tax that GURPS is exempt of, then GURPS would gain ground.

If advocating for D&D would be considered a felony but GURPS would cut the required bailmoney of someone in half, then GURPS would gain ground.

If you couldn't get a flight ticket if you ever played D&D but not GURPS then GURPS would gain ground.

If teachers were able to corporeally punish children for indulging in D&D but not GURPS without getting into legal trouble, then GURPS would gain ground.

If it were possible to hijack mainstream television, make pirate broadcasts extolling the virtues of GURPS daily without persecution, then GURPS would gain ground.

Is this set of "gain ground" proposals a little bit insane? yes.
absolutely.

But it sure ain't the merit of GURPS that does it, simply because of the memetic bastion D&D has. It cannot be pierced by conventional means, not any time soon.

And yes, forceful conversion would work for virtually anything. even FATAL.
But...since GURPS is actually better than D&D, possibly even on an objective level (and "well some people just prefer 5% chance for everything vs a bell curve" is a wash, it's a non argument, some people enjoy eating cactucses with the spines on, or eating their own beard shavings in sour cream, but one might argue that there's some objectivistic benefit of not doing that)

This forceful conversion actually would make the TTRPG 'zeitgeist' or whatever the word is, better QUICKLY.

That's probably the more important thing, the timeframe.
GURPS 4e on an infinite plane would eventually win, especially the longer the crazy world era right now goes on. Cause there's a limit to the amount of crap humanity can eat, there's always renaissances and GURPS 4e, right now, is a passive, time capsuled renassaissance that is virtually cancer free.

Not without bugs in the system, but CANCER free, it doesn't erode your soul, it doesn't intrinsically makes you lame (you can use it for lame stuff tho) and the like.

D&D could return to this kind of standard, but it's unlikely. Because "It's at the pulse of modernity" and modernity has the same memetic bulwark that everyones dumb now, especially the younger generations.

GURPS is not complex. It's almost too simple without the swathes of content for it.

But complexity, maths, and all that is one of the main memes it gets shut down with.
And why not? You can stomp any system that isn't D&D (or Pathfinder) with minimal effort if you have the movement body of D&D.

No true need to care how true it is, because even if you go" Well akshually GURPS is super elegant", the game store game group will still host 100 D&D playsessions before a GURPS one.

Even though GURPS is so much better.
Edit:
In other words:
Chasing modernity, simplicity and other current memetic views about humanity at large, that can only allegedly consume smooth, fisher price featureless products before being overwhelmed...would make GURPS worse.
Not better as a system. Only as a memetic little dog that follows the lead of mass media shaped avalanching.

It would sell better (at least initially), it would make more money because you'd get applauded by the memetic system, but it would be worse.
And it would doom GURPS to NEVER being able to dethrone the mad king D&D with that, because if you modernized GURPS with all the modern garbage that people have to pretend is "The better version of reality"
Then, well, D&D does it better, and is more established on that front too. Again, racist stereotyped Orcs, D&D has that down pat, SJG would have to drum up something 'good' like that first. So, D&D would win in the 'GURPS is now fisher price' too.

In my opinion, of course, but doggoneit, it's an excellent one based on actual observation :P

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Simple core plus expansions and instant kitchen sink are not a partition of the space of games.

True but they do seem to be a good way of classifying approaches to generic game rules- which is exactly the topic under discussion.

And that is the point that (I think) most of us 'Lite evangelists' are trying to make. Lite is effectively a stand alone game (albeit with limited support for many genres) that shares the same fundamental concepts as GURPS and that we should embrace it more than we have before now as a way to introduce GURPS and as a way for newer or less commited players to interact with the main rules set.

Now correct me if I am speaking out of turn but I think the notion of favouring Lite as a learning tool boils down to three specific recommendations:

As far as possible use Lite, with the minimum of additions (clearly explained) for games or the initial phases of campaigns with new players.

Consider using the same Lite plus model as a tool for planning campaigns for groups with less investment.

That a hypothetical 5e should focus on the presentation of the game rather than new mechanics and that that presentation should start with Lite and then say, in so many words, 'that was the core of the game and now this is how you customise and expand it to fit your needs'.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Frost

That a hypothetical 5e should focus on the presentation of the game rather than new mechanics and that that presentation should start with Lite and then say, in so many words, this is the core of the game now this is how you customise and expand it to fit your needs.

Mostly, but not quite. GURPS Action and, to a lesser extent, GURPS After the End introduced some game mechanical variations that streamline and expand what GURPS does; and for a hypothetical fifth edition, I would at least consider changing some of them from being rule variants to being core rules, with the current way of doing things becoming the variant or being dropped entirely.

There is room for improvement in a “next edition” of GURPS; and I'd go further and say that if you aren't making any changes to the game engine, if it's just a repackaging of the same rules in a more presentable format, you shouldn't call it the Fifth Edition.