Backstab - what is it good for?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

All the other enemies who were near their fallen friend then crash down on the backstabber as he is so convenient (due to being right there in there formation)

The problem I'm seeing is that the enemy gets to act right away, before you can flee. Normally, you backstab in ambush, where the enemy is surprised and must spend one turn on Do Nothing. That makes the sequence: "I backstab, they Do Nothing, I use Move to run back over by my pals."

Even if the fight involves no surprise, you can step after an attack, and a step allows any facing change. Thus, you should be able to take out the foe nearest your allies, step toward your allies, and turn to face your foes. And unless the foes are always faster than your allies, the sequence should often be: "I backstab, step toward my allies, and turn to face the remaining foes; my allies step or Move to my side; the enemies now face a line, more or less."

Obviously, if you're often in situations where even the nearest foe is way distant, this can backfire, but dungeon encounters more usually occur at "We turn the corner/we open the door and there they are!" range. Similarly, while this can backfire if your foes are super-fast, delvers should have higher Basic Speed at least some of the time.

[Kalzazz]

Is Social Stigma Monster in DFRPG? How does it work here?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Is Social Stigma Monster in DFRPG? How does it work here?

Edited to add that!

[Colarmel]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Do enemies only fight in tight formations?

There's never anyone more than a few steps away from the main group?

No one ever tries to flank, is kept in reserve or stands back to shoot missiles?

No enemy scouts that can be discovered and silently eliminated before they return with information to their leader?

No shamans exhorting their followers to frenzy while they stand back from the battle, in a place they believe to be safe?

No crafty tomb-robbing necromancers belonging to a rival adventuring party, trying to figure out how to raise the magically barred portal to open the way into the opulent tomb of an ancient chieftain (whose undead draugr form will attack anyone who doesn't know the proper appeasment rituals), while the other members of the party hold off the PCs?

It may be helpful to remark that Kalzazz is playing this PC in Dungeons on Automatic, which is randomly generated packs of creatures directly out of monsters, without any customization (yet).

It's also important to remember that in terms of using backstab to kill archers or wizards or people standing in the back, RAW says you can only do that on a critical success. Usually, you're standing behind the near guy.

[Kalzazz]

Even in non DoA, and even non DF games, I rarely see individual monsters standing around in front of and well separated from their friends


Unless they explode when killed etc

Staying near your friends is important in DFRPG, he who fights alone dies alone

[Kromm]

Backstabbing is an abstraction to remove the need to (1) preface each encounter with a stealth minigame and (2) avoid the arguments over allied distractions and enemy awareness that plague other games. As the rule doesn't consider distance in any sense more precise than "your allies are a diversion, so the enemy must be able to see them," it can lead to a sneak ending up tens or hundreds of yards from allies. However, "It's the GM's responsibility to set the scene for each fight . . . How far apart do the belligerents begin?" (Exploits, p. 26). "When the GM starts combat time" (Exploits, p. 57) – that is, after the scene is set – the sneak can decide whether to try backstabbing.

The way to make backstabbing safe is to use it only when either you have surprise, and know your foes will Do Nothing while you flee, or the encounter distance is no greater than your allies' typical Move. Exploits, pp. 26-27 makes abundantly clear that you'll have this information in advance. In typical dungeon encounters, encounter distance will be between zero (the party rounds a corner or overruns/is overrun by the enemy, and the backstabber fades in the opening chaos) and perhaps half the width of a room (say, 2-5 hexes in most underground complexes).

To avoid getting dogpiled, don't backstab if the distances are large unless you have surprise. If you lack surprise and you're facing distant ranged attackers, just say no. Which sort of makes sense . . . backstabbing is best-advised when you ambush foes or you're in a chaotic, whirling melee where it's hard to keep track of everyone. When the foe is alerted and has a nice, long line of sight, a dogpiled backstabber is a sensible outcome; the fact that the sneak even gets to attack first is kind of generous (you sort of have to wonder how a force of alerted archers wouldn't notice).

There are borderline cases where melee is joined, you decide to backstab, and then you learn the combat sequence is "I backstab, all these bad guys go first, and then my allies can come help." That happens when facing really quick foes. To avoid it, just don't attack right away. Take a Wait maneuver on your turn, let your enemies move, let your allies respond, and when things look good, use your Wait to backstab. "Backstab the nearest monster with an Attack after Olga the Overarmored is engaged" is a perfectly valid Wait trigger.

[Eidoloclast]

I think that, with appropriate trait selection, the backstab damage can scale up pretty well against anything whose skull or vitals you can locate or reach, especially if you're using a weapon that gets the bonus to target chinks in armor.

A hypothetical moderately advanced thief with 20 points in Expert Backstabber, and Weapon Master (Knives) can stab somebody in the vitals (or the brain) with a katar for 2d+7 before any extra weapon properties and probably have enough skill to pull off a rapid strike with their surprise stab--by the way, Kromm, do you only get the backstab bonus on the first attack of a Rapid Strike or Extra Attack frenzy, or do they stay surprised long enough for you to get the second hit in?

Bonus points for backstabbing two guys with one rapid strike, I assume. I also assume there's no way to get Weapon Master (Knives) to apply to a Large Katar in DFRPG, because that's a shortsword.

[ArchonShiva]

Originally Posted by Eidoloclast

do you only get the backstab bonus on the first attack of a Rapid Strike or Extra Attack frenzy, or do they stay surprised long enough for you to get the second hit in?

If you’re attacking from the back, you’re still at their back, and they still have no defense.

If you’re within their arc of vision, they see you now - if stunning from the first attack gives them -4 défense against the second, that means modifiers are calculated from the game state after the first attack, so you’re no longer invisible.

[Jarl Wilm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Incidentally, backstabbing is hardly limited to thieves. Sure, they're better at it, but barbarians, knights, and martial artists, and swashbucklers all have enough stealth to have a decent chance at doing it and would find it useful to do so.

Dear Dr. Kromm:

This is something I've been puzzling over. I'm a long-time RPGer, new to GURPS and DFRPG. I haven't found anything in the GURPS rules that corresponds to the backstabbing rules in Exploits pp. 57-8. I see the same surprise-mental stun rules, and the minus for defending against an attack from behind, but not the +4 for the "perfectly set up" attack. Suppose you don't have anyone else acting as a distraction; you're just one thief sneaking up on a sentry, or one bugbear trying to garrote a lone delver in the soloquest I'm writing. Hypothetical bugbear has an 18 Garrote, with a -5 for aiming at the neck; against a lone delver he'll probably get surprise. Can the bugbear get the +4 for Backstabbing, giving him (18-5)+4=17 to hit the neck? Or does this +4 only apply when the target is distracted by another person, or only apply to delvers?

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Jarl Wilm

Dear Dr. Kromm:

This is something I've been puzzling over. I'm a long-time RPGer, new to GURPS and DFRPG. I haven't found anything in the GURPS rules that corresponds to the backstabbing rules in Exploits pp. 57-8. I see the same surprise-mental stun rules, and the minus for defending against an attack from behind, but not the +4 for the "perfectly set up" attack. Suppose you don't have anyone else acting as a distraction; you're just one thief sneaking up on a sentry, or one bugbear trying to garrote a lone delver in the soloquest I'm writing. Hypothetical bugbear has an 18 Garrote, with a -5 for aiming at the neck; against a lone delver he'll probably get surprise. Can the bugbear get the +4 for Backstabbing, giving him (18-5)+4=17 to hit the neck? Or does this +4 only apply when the target is distracted by another person, or only apply to delvers?

I'm pretty sure that, in GURPS, the +4 corresponds to what GURPS:Martial Arts calls a "telegraphic attack". This rule lets you take +4 to hit in exchange for giving your opponent +2 to defend, so, if your opponent can't defend at all, you can claim a "free" +4 to hit.