Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-28-2022, 07:02 PM   #61
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
When the fighters move from one end to the other of the ring, how are they not moving by hexes?
They are. What they aren't doing is bouncing back and forward every second.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now  
Old 04-28-2022, 07:11 PM   #62
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
They are. What they aren't doing is bouncing back and forward every second.
They won't in GURPS either, unless for some reason you make it that way. The attacker almost always should use their step to chase the defender. In my study of Meier I was taught to never willingly surrender the vor, and that's true for most things. This is why presenting the point is a thing, so the defender can stop the advance and reclaim initiative.

In both linked videos you see this again and again for both armed and unarmed combat.
sir_pudding is offline  
Old 04-29-2022, 12:00 AM   #63
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
There's no question that people take steps during combat, but there's no reason to call them Retreat; it's just part of your ordinary defense.
If you watch the video more attentively, you will notice that sometimes, Mike Tyson steps back or to the side and other times he doesn't, contenting himself to duck or to move his head without footwork.

There are two different ways to dodge in his method: with or without footwork. As there are two different ways to dodge in GURPS: with or without step. When you step backward, this is named a dodge with retreat and you get a +3 bonus.

You don't consider that every dodge makes the character move one hexe* backward or to the side, do you?

___
* Actually, as noted by Sir Pudding, since you are in close combat (i.e. not in the middle of the hexe) you don't move one hexe backward but just a fraction of it.

Last edited by Gollum; 04-29-2022 at 12:56 AM.
Gollum is offline  
Old 04-29-2022, 12:32 AM   #64
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

I'm suddenly wondering ... The problem may come from the fact that it is named "retreat", as many problems from reality checks with IQ come from the fact that GURPS intelligence is not just real IQ.

Indeed, what we name retreat in reality (fleeing away from the attack) is much more all-out defense (or even all-out defense with retreat, +5!) than what GURPS names the retreat option.

Last edited by Gollum; 04-29-2022 at 12:35 AM.
Gollum is offline  
Old 04-29-2022, 02:10 AM   #65
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
If you watch the video more attentively, you will notice that sometimes, Mike Tyson steps back or to the side and other times he doesn't, contenting himself to duck or to move his head without footwork.
You do realize that's a video about footwork? It's not always obvious what he's going with his feet because the camera sometimes cuts it off, but he's stepping all the time.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now  
Old 04-29-2022, 02:23 AM   #66
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
You do realize that's a video about footwork? It's not always obvious what he's going with his feet because the camera sometimes cuts it off, but he's stepping all the time.
Not all the time. Watch it for instance at 0:45. He dodges about 8 blows while stepping only once or twice, then step forward and punches.

I watched many other videos when you see him dodging a few blows without stepping at all. Mike Tison was very good at ducking below blows too.

The difference may appear more obviously with that video:
https://youtu.be/d_kbC36JESs

Last edited by Gollum; 04-29-2022 at 02:41 AM.
Gollum is offline  
Old 04-29-2022, 03:52 AM   #67
Lovewyrm
 
Lovewyrm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Okay, now what's the difference between that and 'regular' fighting that has you dodging, blocking and parrying?

Do characters stand like rockem sockem robots during normal fight?
Or are we to envision this same back and forth dancing for normal fights too?

After all, they're in a big old yard hex with plenty of room to spare.
This is just normal fighting, noone in here retreats.

In boxing you don't have to yield the advance of Tyson, you can just stand there if he goes forward, in fact, isn't that what Buster Douglas did to him?
Catch him all the time in a clinch?

When Tyson and co dance around, then they're just doing normal boxing fighting. It's not a special feature of boxing. It's part of spacing which boxing is tied to, without it, you can't box.
Usually the reason why someone retreats in boxing is to box back. But theoretically you could just clinch it all day. And boxers don't like clinches cause punching is less effective at that range.
(and it's also the reason they're blocking all the time. They're in range!)

Same with that swordfight, if one of these just stood still, the other would have to monkey it up, but none had to because the momentum would be too crazy to handle and the fight would go bonkers. They both were committed to the fight and the repositioning is natural to it. Noone had to reengage because the fight kept going. You slash, this carries you in some direction, the other guy knows this and adjusts accordingly. This is a normal fight.

You know what's a retreat in that clip?
When they both walk away from one another after getting to close/scoring.

Truly out of reach. Not just a realtime dodge, the walking around IS the dodge (because turns are played at the same time)

This is just standard fighting with natural repositions. Noone is retreating here.
They're both committed, it's not a retreating dodge, noone is bailing, or anything.

Edit:
And maybe I can even prove that this was just normal regular fight dodging.
Let's say one of the swordfighters overpressures the other and he caves in and the other starts hacking away because the other is unable to deal with the advance.

You think there's a dodge then? Is the other sword guy going matrix in that situatin and weaving around the swinging steel!?!?
I mean technically he'd be trying to dodge by virtue of anyone automatically tying to not get hit, but he'd basically be beat at that point. With any further writhing just being 'a normal side effect'.

Furthermore, dodging a ranged attack doesn't dodge the bullet or the arrow, it means you MOVE in a way that makes the shooter miss.
You're not retreating.
You're not doing a retreating dodge (unless you are, but those tend to shift body posture you start RUNNING etc) you merely MOVE in a way that makes the other guy miss. You're not waiting for the bullet, step around it and end up in the same spot.

Last edited by Lovewyrm; 04-29-2022 at 04:05 AM.
Lovewyrm is offline  
Old 04-29-2022, 04:00 AM   #68
Farmer
 
Farmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovewyrm View Post
If you can do retreats, engages, and clean form attacks, every seconds, then I'd say you must be exceptionally good, having to not only change direction, on a second tact basis, with all the counter momentum that's added to it, but you also are in 'fight mode' against a potentially dangerous opponent.
Have you ever watched cricket? From the time the bowler releases the ball, you have between about 0.5 and 0.9 seconds before it reaches the batter. In that time, batters regularly take a step forward, then rock back (or even take several steps down the pitch), and then take their bat back and then decide to play straight, horizontal, forward, or back (and many other combinations) and strike a ball moving somewhere between 80km/h - 140km/h (faster in some cases, but that's at the highest level and less common), dealing with it moving in the air, hitting a grass pitch and variable bounce, movement, and so on. 1 second is a lot long than you might imagine when you're well trained in various physical activities, particularly those which are almost reflexive. All the movements of a batter are (typically) decided after the ball is released. Sometimes it's premeditated, but generally they can see the line and length of the delivery and then react and move in that time frame. Sure, faster deliveries mean less reaction time, but they can still move, adjust, and hit or withdraw within a fraction of a second.

The complexities of two fighters moving are finer than the granularity of GURPS. A slight lead with a shoulder causes a reaction to sway or pivot which causes a counterreaction to step and use the other hand which causes a reaction to to try to block and reverse the sway and so on and so on. And as many people have mentioned many times, a hex of movement doesn't require a literal yard of movement all the time. It's an average that can reflect all those little nuanced movements that allow just enough space to help to avoid a blow but not so much you can't push back quickly to attempt to attack (perhaps to also face a retreat).
__________________
Farmer
Mortal Wombat
"But if the while I think on thee, dear friend
All losses are restored and sorrows end."
Farmer is offline  
Old 04-29-2022, 04:06 AM   #69
Lovewyrm
 
Lovewyrm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

I haven't watched cricket, but I edited my post about ranged attacks.

I'll echo it.

Furthermore, dodging a ranged attack doesn't dodge the bullet or the arrow, it means you MOVE in a way that makes the shooter miss.
You're not retreating.
You're not doing a retreating dodge (unless you are, but those tend to shift body posture you start RUNNING etc) you merely MOVE in a way that makes the other guy miss. You're not waiting for the bullet, step around it and end up in the same spot.

Edit:
And yeah, the fact that a yard is big is the reason why I consider the video linked at me 'normal fighting'.
Walking around is normal to sword fighting. Otherwise it's, I dunno, whiffle batting or something.

You don't see it often where two sword fighters stand around stock still only dodging the sword as it comes at them. It hapens too, I guess but it's not the core of fighting.
This stepping around is just a standard effect of fighting. Noone is retreating or breaking off. They're both committed. Just like boxers are comitted to keep boxing after a clinch but they don't wanna retreat on their own (since that leaves them open) so the referee breaks them up.

Oh yeah!
Or in other words:
Who of them is doing EXTRA STEPS? Do any of these fights come across like where one of them is going extra far, every 'turn'?
How often does it seem like "Oh in this swing he took EXTRA movement"

Maybe here or there, but not every attack. Tht would be unnatural. It's not impossible. I never said it's impossible, just that it ranges from goofy to exhausting.

And also once again:
Good luck swordfighting if one of them stepped forward into body contact.
Enjoy those awkward swings then.
In order to have a normal sword fight, you have to have spacing.

Last edited by Lovewyrm; 04-29-2022 at 04:19 AM.
Lovewyrm is offline  
Old 04-29-2022, 04:16 AM   #70
Farmer
 
Farmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovewyrm View Post
I haven't watched cricket, but I edited my post about ranged attacks.

I'll echo it.

Furthermore, dodging a ranged attack doesn't dodge the bullet or the arrow, it means you MOVE in a way that makes the shooter miss.
You're not retreating.
You're not doing a retreating dodge (unless you are, but those tend to shift body posture you start RUNNING etc) you merely MOVE in a way that makes the other guy miss. You're not waiting for the bullet, step around it and end up in the same spot.
That wasn't the point. The point is how much you can do in a second.
__________________
Farmer
Mortal Wombat
"But if the while I think on thee, dear friend
All losses are restored and sorrows end."
Farmer is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.